Does such hostility exist in the USA?

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Chris
Talking with splicer like you is a breath of fresh air. Self testing and trialing of splices over a period of time is the only safe way to proceed. Folk over here think I am against hand splicing and this is simply not the case what is worrying is that nobody is offering an "in depth" course or training on the process at this time. A course of this kind would need to be balanced against the cost and return so the saving made on products over those bought off the shelf and this may not in the short term balance out.

The other issue is proving your conpetency for splicing. Manufacturers do this by CE testing their ropes produced by their splicers. But how would a person sl=plicing for their own use do this? Another can of worms.

Nick
 
I have taken my time on purpose in responding to this thread, firstly to take advice from industry respected peers and just to see how this thread develops.

Mike let Wikipedia explain to you the term and meaning of Hostility "Hostility is a form of angry internal rejection or denial in psychology. In everyday speech it is more commonly used as a synonym for anger and aggression"

Now you understand what hostility means, please explain why you used this term on purpose in a thread heading linking to a page on our website which clearly has no anger or aggression inferred, just a simple page explaining the facts on the rights and wrongs. This article is purely aimed at keeping climbers safe. The only hostility I can see at present is clearly coming from you.

Your hostility is clearly driven by the fact that we rejected your approach to advise our company and the fact that several other well known UK retailers have also done the same due to you arrogance. Your manor and approach to business will develop in time with experience which clearly you are lacking at the moment.

Mike remember the APF Show in September last year? It wasn’t our company which was being slammed by the industry for putting the public in danger on our trade stand, as I recall it was yours. Yes we can all be guilty at times of something, it’s how you respond to the criticism and learn from it.

As a respected distributor both in the UK and aboard it is important that the products we distribute comply with the relevant standards required to ensure user safety. Safety standards are put in place for a reason, each country or continent have different regulations to adhere to and understand. We are a full member of SATRA a leading UK testing facility used by many leading companies to ensure the products they sell are safe. Are you claiming that being a LOLER Inspector we have no need for these test facilities and that you are fully competent to undertake their job? EN Standards are what we are given to work with and comply with whether you agree or disagree on them. In a court of law if there is an accident this is what it will come down to, did it comply or not, did the supplier or manufacture do everything within reason to produce a safe product? By testing and applying a standard this covers the issue of being competent.

Can you really explain the difference between refusing to pass a Karabiner made in China with no markings to someone who has produced a hand-splice with no markings or traceability? Where is the line drawn? Or are you claiming that you are competent in being able to pass these products also?

In the UK, supply companies have numerous regulations to contend with to operate within the law and avoid prosecution from the Health & Safety Executive and the Trading Standards; some have chosen to turn a blind eye at the risk of their customer’s safety.

One well known UK Company has already been visited by the Trading Standards and told to stop retailing their splices as it is in contravention of European and UK laws and regulations. This retailer however probably produces one of the best hand splices in the industry but needs to back it up by full CE Certification like other European Retails have in order to sell them to end-users. To date NO UK retailer has undertaken CE Certification.

Lets make it 100% clear to all concerned here and now that Fletcher Stewart is not pushing to ban hand-splices in the UK like some are claiming; we are asking that those who are retailing hand spliced products to end-users for profit to do the right thing and re-invest their profits in having the correct CE Certification applied to the products they make as do the manufactures. This is not just limited to spliced products but other products as well.

AFAG401 states:
Point 20: All new climbing equipment should be sold with evidence of conformity with the relevant BS EN standard, and carry a relevant CE mark. No structural alterations should be made to any item

Point 42: Splices should be made by someone competent to splice, eg the manufacturer. Competence should be demonstrable for each rope type.

For those who are unsure what AFAG is, AFAG is like your Z133 standard but broken down into many individual sections.

Mike you used the term “in the UK you get kicked off arb forums for speaking the truth” the fact is you were BANNED from Arbtalk for more that what you imply.

So what are we actually guilty of? Well simple, we are trying to create and promote a safer supply of products which climbers trust, is this a bad thing? I don’t think so.

Now this topic could run on and on and go into a lot more detail and long winded explanations. I would like to apologise to the forum members for a topic which has spilled over the pond to your forum and please take what is written on other threads by this individual very carefully.
 
The hostility seems to be coming from the UK!

This thread is simply bashing ego's.

Do Fletcher Stewarts view end user splicing as negative or just dealer/retailer splicing without the CE traceability aspects?

Ben R seems to be saying the right thing for the end user.

Jason James Gairn is one of the most respected, intelligent and experienced tree surgeons in Essex.

Mike Popham should not be treated with an ageist attitude. I have met many 20+ year tree surgeons with not a tenth of the knowledge and enthusiasm that he brings to OUR industry. He is an amazing 25 year old.

I am a little bit of an anomaly in the UK because I climb on a single line with a Unicender. I follow my beliefs. Safely.
Maybe one day arbjobs Nick will let me join in the climbing competitions.
I wish for safety and creativity in my work environment.

Paul.
 
Hi Paul
It was the head judge and respected arborist Paul Searl who prevented you competing in the competition not me. He was unhappy allowing anyone to climb on a system that wasnt recognised as a current UK industry accepted system.

I like the idea of SRT climbing systems and this can be concurred by senior members of Treebuzz.

As for any personal issues with Mike I think you will find I am not alone in my concern at his opinions and I am sorry if this upsets you.

Nick
 
"Do Fletcher Stewarts view end user splicing as negative or just dealer/retailer splicing without the CE traceability aspects?"

What end-users do is down to them, it is their own safety and the safety of their friends they have in their hands.

I have clearly stated in my post where we stand regarding splicing and non-conforming products.
 
Nigel and Nick, Thanks for some clarification for the end user.

I would agree that for suppliers selling splices to the public it is important for suppliers to meet a recognised standard and that they need some sort of legislation to support them in the event of any accident.

It is also nice to know that climbers are still trusted with making decisions for themselves, surrounding personal safety.

After all is there really any difference by a splice performed by a climber for themselves or a knot. Either could be performed incorrectly and errors with both could be fatal. Again, where do you draw the line?

For what it is worth, the only reason I have not attended one of Nod's splicing courses is that I am waiting for those courses to evolve into something that has a competency test at the end of it. I see little point at the moment in paying to go on a course with no relevant qualification at the end, in light of all the debate surrounding hand splicing.

This is in no way to say that I don't think the content of the course is useful. I will take up the course in a second when the competency test is there and accepted by UK law, whatever that may be.. EN, CE, whatever.

In the meantime, I am happy with my own splices and will continue to use them. :)
 
[ QUOTE ]
For what it is worth, the only reason I have not attended one of Nod's splicing courses is that I am waiting for those courses to evolve into something that has a competency test at the end of it. I see little point at the moment in paying to go on a course with no relevant qualification at the end, in light of all the debate surrounding hand splicing.

This is in no way to say that I don't think the content of the course is useful. I will take up the course in a second when the competency test is there and accepted by UK law, whatever that may be.. EN, CE, whatever.

In the meantime, I am happy with my own splices and will continue to use them. :)

[/ QUOTE ]

No problem with that Ben. When we offer a splicing workshop here in the States, we don’t have anything other than a Certificate Of Completion afterwards, along with a batch of hand splices that the participants have done that get shipped out for break testing.

People who attend these workshops are leaders in their field just for taking the time out of a busy schedule with nothing in return other than the knowledge gained to know what a good, safe splice is and how to perform one should they decide to continue on their own. They gain the confidence, which is so critical in tree work and hopefully allows them to be safer.

Certification is still an ongoing, evolving issue here in the States and one in which the rope manufacturers are well aware of. Sounds like the UK has similar concerns with splicing issues as well.

Very interesting topic here.
 
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