dependent

[klimbinfool]

you ever realize how dependent we become on all the modern equiptment we use ? The other day I pulled up to a job site to remove a couple limbs off a Pistach tree and pulling out my gear , I realized I didnt have anything but my rope and saddle.

No micro pulley, no biners,no rings,no prussik, not even a length of Ultra tech.So using all old school, I body thrusted up the tree, roped down a few limbs and came back down.

When your use to hand over hand and then fare leading the slack out,it's ironic that you keep doing it no matter what. I caught myself doing the hand over hand to my next location to find out that there was no fare lead. I had to laugh at how dependent I'd become on such a little thing such as a pulley.Take away everythig else, but dont take my MICRO!

The same goes for rigging. I've watched people who have olny learned how to rig with modern equiptment. Slings , pulleys, Porta Wrap, Hobbs , Grcs. put in a tree with just a bull line and thier rope and they look at you kinda perplexed. like, whaat the hell am I suppose to do with this ?

For this reason, that is why when I teach new climbers , they start from ground zero. The faster they learn the faster they advance.

Anybody ever have this problem ?

Thanks
Greg

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Greg,

Dependant isn't the word that I'd use, appreciative works better for me. I've found myself in your situation too. It feels a bit like caveman climbing.

A few years ago we had finished up a job and I sent the chip truck and gear van back to the shop. I was raking up with a guy and a neighbor came over to ask if we could take down a little tree. A cherry about 6" at the ground. Since I didn't have a polesaw I had to climb to get the top down. All of my gear except the chainsaw and rakes were gone. Since the guy who was working for me was an intern I was really forced to set a good example. I dug around in the back of my van and found a piece of Arborplex that I used for lashing loads. I made up a bowline on a bight with a tail and went up the tree. My skinny butt was pretty sore and I didn't spend more than ten minutes in the "saddle" but, we got the tree down and I was inside the rules.

When you start new climbers, what system do you begin with? I used to start with a rope and rope snap. Lately, I've looked at the scope of the training and my immediate goals. If my goal is to get someone climbing and working, I'll jump ahead a few steps and set them up with a distel and all the trimmings. Then, as time goes along I deconstruct their system. My feeling is that new climbers have so much to learn and most of it is difficult. I want them to have a feeling of success quickly. Rather than climbing be a struggle I strip out some things and do a shuffle. Over time, all of the climbers have progressed quickly because they get the climbing part down quicker than struggling with gear. I've had the luxury of being pretty closely involved in the training though. Since the gear locker was sitting on the curb we could add or subtract pieces on a tree by tree basis. To make sure that they knew the basics, I would have them do part of a tree in a retro mode. Give them a real-life drill when they don't expect it. Doing that once makes them understand the need to have a wide range of skills and not being too dependant on gear.

Along the same lines, I show how to rig retro but rarely use the skills. Running good ropes through branch unions gives me the willies.

 

[tod_k]

Teaching the fundamentals is important. I was working with a beginer who was taught to climb with a closed ended hitch, pulley and friction saver. Well we were just about done and for some reason he was retying his hitch and he dropped it. Since he was never taught the fundamentals he did not know how to get down with out his prusik.

 

[Rich_O]

We also start all of our new climbers with the basics. As they learn each system they get to advance to another. I would not want to see a person drop their tress cord and not have any knowledge to get out of the tree. /forum/images/graemlins/ahhhhh.gif

 

[Tom Dunlap]

I don't want it to sound like I chuck people off the dock and expect them to swim. New climbers are under close supervision until they have all of the basics covered. They would be working in small trees or in tandem with an experienced climber. I can't ever remember a case where the new climber would have ever been stranded.

By the time they would be in a position to retie their hitch in the tree they would have the skills to climb without anything but a rope. Backup plans are built into the training arc. They must be able to swim before they jump off the dock.

Besides, they would have spent time on the ground, watching the climbers, and being taught during that time.

Having new climbers "taught" in a program that doesn't include the basics doesn't serve them or the profession. In most other teaching programs there is a building block approach that's accepted across the board. Not so in arborculture it seems. This is one of the beauties of using the skills check-off system in The Tree Climbers Companion.

 

[Rich_O]

[ QUOTE ]
Having new climbers "taught" in a program that doesn't include the basics doesn't serve them or the profession.

[/ QUOTE ]
Here, here Tom, but I know many of us have seen or know of people being trained without learning the basics. My early training with one of those national tree care companies was with the manager on the ground just telling you to go out there and get it. During my years with them it was fortunate that the only injury was a broken leg from a very long uncontrolled swing.(we did not even have safety lanyards back then) Shortly after recovering from his broken leg that man made a carrier change. My 2 cents is to use a check list with all new employees, you don't want to forget something that is second nature to you and assume they will know.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Yup, that's a frustration that I have with the profession. Chuck people off the dock and expect them to swim like Tarzan. Not likely to even be as good as Cheetah.

This is so odd too. At every arbo gathering someone will be talking major league sports and college sports. How come it't only the rare player who can go from high school to the bigs? Tiger Woods started playing when he was a tike and is a very gifted athlete. How can the rest of the golfers expect to be as good? Practice and take lessons. Watch golf tourney's on TV to get tips. But ask an arbo to come watch a TCC and too many have work to get done. For all the Pettys and Earnharts that grew up inside the race track there are plenty who are out banging fenders at the county fairgrounds or racing karts. Some of them will make it to the bigs.

I am encouraged by some of the newer climbers that I'm meeting. There is a solid understanding of learning being brought up the profession. As more progressive climbers recruit accolites the profession will be better.

 

[Mark Chisholm]

Happy B-Day Rich?

 

[glens]

Ditto on the birthday.

I think that's the first time I've seen the "cake" by the username.

 

[klimbinfool]

Tom ,
I think your way of training is very valid. However, Certain cituations dictate different training procedures.

People who come to work for a city, arn't necessarily wanting to be on the tree crew. it's just where the opening is and we have to fill it or we may loose it. The job discription for hire is generic. So we arn't getting people who have tree back ground all the time. Actually most of the time. We are in the process of changing that though. This is why i start people from ground zero. Biner or clip, rope and Blake Hitch. I dont even start them off with a split tail.If they are willing to work this procedure to what I feel is proficient enough, then I advance them.

Knowing that most of these folks are going to bug out and go to another dept. can be discouraging. This is why I dont want to invest alot of my time jumping ahead of the game.I'm in a constant training mode and sometimes It gets tireing. Would like to just pull up to a job site and start working, but after thirteen years you would think I would get used to it.

On the other hand, when I put on climbing classes the mode changes and I train more like what you do .Knowing that they are in the arbo. field, alot of the advanced techniques come out.Enthusiasm,attentivness,initiative and constant questioning also tells me were I can possibly start. Although , I have been fooled by this as well. Its a crap shoot as to who will and who wont.As they say in the insurance field, some will, some wont and so what.you have to move on.Theres only a small percentage of those who you invest that time with , that will, as you well know.I have found in thirteen years, only two that truley were interested, and unfortunatly one had to tarnsfer off the crew because of shoulder problems and the other ( an hourly) never got hired, but had the makings of a really good climber.

Anyway , enough rambling.

Thanks
Greg