- Location
- Home of the New Jersey Devils
Was solid I believe
Crane accident...
- Thread starter Mark Chisholm
- Start date
- Location
- Home of the New Jersey Devils
Maybe we can post it here on Treebuzz as well?
It's collective, on both climber and operator, as well. It was most likely lack of experience and lack of knowledge with cranes on both ends. The climber should have been able to tell 'at what point will this flip'. The operator should have seen the 'unbalanced' strap. It's an unforgiving business and inexperience can get the better of you
Totally agree. Both are responsible. Sounds like an in over your head situation. Culpability here is shared. Truly sad for the climber and his family.
- Location
- Nasvhille
I’m here to learn and really feel for this team and their families. I’m not sure who will take the fiscal liability but I think both parties contributed. I think Operator and climber lacked experience and likely the tree care team lacks a culture with a feedback loop. Anyone on my ground team would have seen a potential mistake in an unbalanced pick and asked the climber to take another look at the decision. A culture of feedback and active interest in the safety of your team members can make even the newest guy a good alarm for issues that experienced guys are not seeing because of over faith in experience, a bad day mentally, or an over reliance on the crane operator. This accident sounds like inexperience led the way but a feedback loop may have prevented the accident whether it was the fault of inexperience or haste by experienced professionals.
- Location
- Minneapolis
I want to make it clear that I mean this with all due respect, but in my opinion I agree with the people who are saying both are at fault and this situation shows gross incompetence on all parties involved. If you don't know enough physics / rigging / trees in general to be able to tell where to put a sing on a spar you have no business doing crane work on either end. We NEED mentorship in this industry to survive and thrive, and there was none here.
I'm saying this with a recent close call under my belt this week as the crane operator too - you need a skilled person on both ends to make it work. There's too much estimation and "it should be goods" involved with trees, especially with brush picks that can't be reasonably calculated. Green weight log charts should be mandatory.
I'm saying this with a recent close call under my belt this week as the crane operator too - you need a skilled person on both ends to make it work. There's too much estimation and "it should be goods" involved with trees, especially with brush picks that can't be reasonably calculated. Green weight log charts should be mandatory.
So about 16' of 24" diameter spar when I calculate it for loblolly pine. I doubt that another pine species is different enough to affect the calculation. How does one get that to flip?! It's too long. It would need to be tied 7' down the spar. If it was an 8' pick I could start to visualize this happening, but 16' is too long to rig a log in a manner that it flips. I feel like there is missing information here...
I had a similar thing happen to me when I was a green climber (maybe 1.5 yrs experience). I had choked off a log below a heavy stem union (stems had already been cut off but wood was extra dense). Came down a ways and was satisfied with the pick. Crane operator was a little boomed out and asked me to take it a little smaller, so I climbed back up a few feet and made my cut without reassessing. Saw pinched a little bit I remember gassing it while the crane wiggled it a little. It broke free and started to flip. I kicked out my gaffs and dropped about 7 feet catching myself just in time to see the log impact the stem near where I had been standing. I was completely uninjured.
I think I always assumed it was my fault. The crane op is a great guy and very experienced with trees. My old boss, an extremely experienced guy was also nearby. Not sure how liability would have shaken out but now it seemes like there is plenty of blame for us all to share.
It's too bad this turned out to be a tragic accident. Whereas in my case it was a learning experience. It wouldn't have taken much for me to have suffered the same fate...
These days I use long load balancing slings and am always ready to throw a half hitch high up on the pick so I don't have to worry about it flipping. It drives the ground guys nuts sometimes... I don't care.
I think it's easy to criticize and much harder to admit that the same thing could have happened to you.
www.stitcher.com
I think I always assumed it was my fault. The crane op is a great guy and very experienced with trees. My old boss, an extremely experienced guy was also nearby. Not sure how liability would have shaken out but now it seemes like there is plenty of blame for us all to share.
It's too bad this turned out to be a tragic accident. Whereas in my case it was a learning experience. It wouldn't have taken much for me to have suffered the same fate...
These days I use long load balancing slings and am always ready to throw a half hitch high up on the pick so I don't have to worry about it flipping. It drives the ground guys nuts sometimes... I don't care.
I think it's easy to criticize and much harder to admit that the same thing could have happened to you.
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- Location
- Medford, OR
I'd agree with others, both were inexperienced in this type of work. Based on the description I'd say the crane OP is mainly at fault as he was directing the pic, changing the set up etc. But I teach my guys that ultimately, you are responsible to stay alive, if something doesn't seem right, discuss it. So the climber has some fault, but I'd place the liability on the crane.
Picking palms makes perfect sense if that was all his tree experience, we've picked 30' b&b palms 2 feet above the root ball to balance horizontally, obviously not good for logs.
Picking palms makes perfect sense if that was all his tree experience, we've picked 30' b&b palms 2 feet above the root ball to balance horizontally, obviously not good for logs.
andrus kokerov
Participating member
- Location
- Estonia
I was thinking what i would have done in that moment. i think i would have say`d bye-bye to the crane, even if i loose money with it. I have had some shitty advice in the past from some crane operators (mostly to take it bigger) and i am happy i have done it my way.
Steve Connally
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Suffolk, Virginia
I'd like that but how can we get TCIA to let us do that? I have a pre-published PDF with pics of the article. You know I had to sign a release for them to print it so they do own it now. I think they know who you are and will probably let you. You seems to be on fairly good terms with them LOL
Steve Connally
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Suffolk, Virginia
The charts are mandatory. Supposed to be in the vicinity of the operator. The issue is the charts haven't been truly updated since the 1940's when they were created for the lumber industry. There is such a varied weight on every species depending on a million environmental factors. Let hope a knee jerk policy isn't enacted by some agency.
Steve Connally
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Suffolk, Virginia
Have you ready the paper on avalanche Heuristic Traps? Certainly applicable here.I had a similar thing happen to me when I was a green climber (maybe 1.5 yrs experience). I had choked off a log below a heavy stem union (stems had already been cut off but wood was extra dense). Came down a ways and was satisfied with the pick. Crane operator was a little boomed out and asked me to take it a little smaller, so I climbed back up a few feet and made my cut without reassessing. Saw pinched a little bit I remember gassing it while the crane wiggled it a little. It broke free and started to flip. I kicked out my gaffs and dropped about 7 feet catching myself just in time to see the log impact the stem near where I had been standing. I was completely uninjured.
I think I always assumed it was my fault. The crane op is a great guy and very experienced with trees. My old boss, an extremely experienced guy was also nearby. Not sure how liability would have shaken out but now it seemes like there is plenty of blame for us all to share.
It's too bad this turned out to be a tragic accident. Whereas in my case it was a learning experience. It wouldn't have taken much for me to have suffered the same fate...
These days I use long load balancing slings and am always ready to throw a half hitch high up on the pick so I don't have to worry about it flipping. It drives the ground guys nuts sometimes... I don't care.
I think it's easy to criticize and much harder to admit that the same thing could have happened to you.
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Discover your favorite Podcasts from a variety of categories including Daily News, Music, Business, True Crime, Comedy, Politics and more. Listen to Podcasts on Pandora.
KentuckySawyer
Participating member
- Location
- Louisville
It takes two to tango. Working with a crane is a huge collaboration and the people on either end of the boom should be confident in the plan before pulling the trigger.
This line of work can have a very steep learning curve. Sometimes you only get one chance. Unfortunately, the crane operator learned a valuable lesson.
This line of work can have a very steep learning curve. Sometimes you only get one chance. Unfortunately, the crane operator learned a valuable lesson.
ATH
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Findlay, Ohio
You can just link to it...right? Here is January's edition:
http://tcimag.tcia.org/publication/?i=643274#{%22issue_id%22:643274,%22publication_id%22:%2254984%22,%22view%22:%22contentsBrowser%22}
(If that link works...)
- Location
- Charlotte, NC
What if we had qualifications/certifications/licenses for every aspect of or work. If a practitioner/worker learns and proves they can make those kind of decisions and earns the credential, then they are accountable for their actions. If decisions are made by an unqualified worker, then they are accountable for their actions.
Never can anyone make you do anything.
If one is not confident in their views and actions, then they must recognize they should not act or take the risk. Either way how can we say this person made this person do something. Influence is a common argument for this. However, never can anyone take control of you.
Working together is simply awesome and each action, back and forth is accountable to that person.
We can support each other in many ways to help prevent them from poor choices. We can recognize ours and others behaviors as only doing what we know to do. Which may show incompetence. And which is very ok to not know something. If we act as though we know and our actions say we don't know... that only shows what we really know.
Never can anyone make you do anything.
If one is not confident in their views and actions, then they must recognize they should not act or take the risk. Either way how can we say this person made this person do something. Influence is a common argument for this. However, never can anyone take control of you.
Working together is simply awesome and each action, back and forth is accountable to that person.
We can support each other in many ways to help prevent them from poor choices. We can recognize ours and others behaviors as only doing what we know to do. Which may show incompetence. And which is very ok to not know something. If we act as though we know and our actions say we don't know... that only shows what we really know.
evo
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- My Island, WA
Sounds like both parties are responsible and the climber is at fault.
Steve Connally
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Suffolk, Virginia
That podcast is well worth the 10 minutes of anyones time. Great shareI had a similar thing happen to me when I was a green climber (maybe 1.5 yrs experience). I had choked off a log below a heavy stem union (stems had already been cut off but wood was extra dense). Came down a ways and was satisfied with the pick. Crane operator was a little boomed out and asked me to take it a little smaller, so I climbed back up a few feet and made my cut without reassessing. Saw pinched a little bit I remember gassing it while the crane wiggled it a little. It broke free and started to flip. I kicked out my gaffs and dropped about 7 feet catching myself just in time to see the log impact the stem near where I had been standing. I was completely uninjured.
I think I always assumed it was my fault. The crane op is a great guy and very experienced with trees. My old boss, an extremely experienced guy was also nearby. Not sure how liability would have shaken out but now it seemes like there is plenty of blame for us all to share.
It's too bad this turned out to be a tragic accident. Whereas in my case it was a learning experience. It wouldn't have taken much for me to have suffered the same fate...
These days I use long load balancing slings and am always ready to throw a half hitch high up on the pick so I don't have to worry about it flipping. It drives the ground guys nuts sometimes... I don't care.
I think it's easy to criticize and much harder to admit that the same thing could have happened to you.
Podcasts | Pandora
Discover your favorite Podcasts from a variety of categories including Daily News, Music, Business, True Crime, Comedy, Politics and more. Listen to Podcasts on Pandora.
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Light 14 or 16" narrow kerf bar for 200t or 201t- Started by southsoundtree
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