Crane accident 8/31/21 Washington State

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ATH said:
I guess I see it as a "just because you can doesn't mean you should" situation. Even with the small landing, could they have rigged pieces down, then lifted them out with the crane to avoid the dynamic loads??? There is always another way. Yes, that other way might take longer. But ER wait times are long these days...and finding a heavy tow truck to roll a crane back over takes a long time too.
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I have not watched the video, but I don’t see why reason to use a crane as a remote rigging point. If the crane is not tall enough, put on a job or bring in a bigger crane?

In this neighborhood, finding a big enough tow truck is easy. There’s a company down the street with at least 4 wreckers in the 60 ton class, and I can think of half a dozen other local companies with 50 ton wreckers. Don’t know why we have so many in the area, but they all seem to stay busy somehow.
 
Reach said:
I have not watched the video, but I don’t see why reason to use a crane as a remote rigging point. If the crane is not tall enough, put on a job or bring in a bigger crane?

In this neighborhood, finding a big enough tow truck is easy. There’s a company down the street with at least 4 wreckers in the 60 ton class, and I can think of half a dozen other local companies with 50 ton wreckers. Don’t know why we have so many in the area, but they all seem to stay busy somehow.
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Yeah appears as though they just wanted to get it done, was surprised to hear in the video that it was their first day using the crane, so they didn’t even know exactly how to position it or if they could make the reach. I guess another discussion to be had would be what’s the comparable force or strain on a crane of taking real big picks that aren’t properly balanced and end up shook loading the crane compare to swinging a very light top in comparison n, no matter what the actual difference and argument for it that could be made using a crane as a rigging point shouldn’t be done or promoted on YouTube, if you can’t find a big enough crane take the time to rig it down.
 
Reach said:
I have not watched the video, but I don’t see why reason to use a crane as a remote rigging point. If the crane is not tall enough, put on a job or bring in a bigger crane?
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Reach I’m not sure what the pick was that flipped the crane, but I don’t think it was the top. I think it was some trunk wood with some brush on it. The spar that was still standing was maybe 35’ up.

ATH there’s a lot of great reasons to use a crane in this case… using tried and true methods of tying and cutting. (Ahem Chisholm thanks) Yes there is a level of productivity involved, but it can also be much safer to use a crane, which is more often than not why I see it used. In this specific case, you rig down a piece of trunk wood in that steep ass ravine, that piece is going to travel down the gulley. Which will actually be much harder for the crane to pick, even though it’s stationary. The piece is further from the boom and also likely at a lower elevation… bad and bad. Not to mention some poor shmuck has to go and try to get two slings on that trunkwood on a steep ravine. Sounds terrible to me.
 
AlanKekoa said:
Yeah appears as though they just wanted to get it done, was surprised to hear in the video that it was their first day using the crane, so they didn’t even know exactly how to position it or if they could make the reach. I guess another discussion to be had would be what’s the comparable force or strain on a crane of taking real big picks that aren’t properly balanced and end up shook loading the crane compare to swinging a very light top in comparison n, no matter what the actual difference and argument for it that could be made using a crane as a rigging point shouldn’t be done or promoted on YouTube, if you can’t find a big enough crane take the time to rig it down.
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Curious, what is your experience working with a boom crane in tree work?
 
ATH said:
I've never worked with a crane...in that tree, could smaller pieces be rigged off of the tree?
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No, it shouldn’t be done. Dude even said in the video they were good for 6k at that angle, top guess was 600#

later in the video he poorly explained how you should avoid dynamic loads, ‘500 pounds, can generate 5000k loads, or something like that’

he’s full of shit and his math is way wrong, but he knows better.

the right way of doing that is to lower the top on the tree. Lower to ground or butt hang it and pick it out. Essentially lowering the height of the tree until the boom can pick it
 
Reach said:
I will make one last comment here, and that is in regards to your disparaging comments towards Mr. Venasnursery. I have never met him person, but would be honored to have the opportunity. He seems to be an honest man, a man of integrity, as far as I can tell. The very fact that he is willing to put out his past on a public forum, explaining that he used to do some illegal things and instead working the hours he has to rebuild his life, says a lot about his character.

The fact that you are willing to take such statements and use them to attack him, without having ever met him, and without ever having any direct communications with him to give a base for your opinions tells a lot about your character.
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I have met him in person, as well as seen how he runs his business and does his job. I contacted him to do work for my parents, who have a huge mature garden and landscape they have built over 30 years. They had multiple large dead trees with a tiny drop zone and beloved mature plants all around. These trees were beyond my ability to remove safely as a solo climber without smashing anything. The job required a lift to be done safely. @VenasNursery is a great guy who runs a tight ship. His equipment, in this case trucks, saws, mini skid and spider lift, is all maintained in excellent condition. He takes great pride in his work. He and his employees actually know how to talk to clients and work with them. He and his crew were efficient, thorough, safe and went above and beyond what the scope of work was while still finishing the project 2 hours early. I, and my parents, could not have been happier with them. This is one of the only experiences I can remember them having with a contractor where nothing bad happened. So, @AlanKekoa you should be ashamed of yourself for disparaging people the way you are. You really don't know what you're talking about.
 
Stumpsprouts said:
Curious, what is your experience working with a boom crane in tree work?
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As the climber when companies can't fit their boom or don't have a capable one, I've seen a lot of bad picks myself mainly from owners or other using booms not balancing properly and flipping pieces, etc. Knock on wood all of the picks I've done have gone smoothly and done right I feel like it should be and is the safest way to do most big removals. Worked with a number of different operators, some amazing and great who I could tell where really focused and aware of the dangers and both of our safety with good communicate working together smoothly and others who weren't so much.
 
Njdelaney said:
I have met him in person, as well as seen how he runs his business and does his job. I contacted him to do work for my parents, who have a huge mature garden and landscape they have built over 30 years. They had multiple large dead trees with a tiny drop zone and beloved mature plants all around. These trees were beyond my ability to remove safely as a solo climber without smashing anything. The job required a lift to be done safely. @VenasNursery is a great guy who runs a tight ship. His equipment, in this case trucks, saws, mini skid and spider lift, is all maintained in excellent condition. He takes great pride in his work. He and his employees actually know how to talk to clients and work with them. He and his crew were efficient, thorough, safe and went above and beyond what the scope of work was while still finishing the project 2 hours early. I, and my parents, could not have been happier with them. This is one of the only experiences I can remember them having with a contractor where nothing bad happened. So, @AlanKekoa you should be ashamed of yourself for disparaging people the way you are. You really don't know what you're talking about.
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Yeah you can't "shame" people that comes from within if you know you've done something wrong, he made assumptions, false judgments and then subsequently lied about it so I have no qualms with saying that like it is. Curious did he perform the work himself and is he a capable climber?
 
Steve Connally said:
Surprising after all these years of honesty, openness, sharing incidents, and trying to pass on information for the betterment of the industry.........carrying myself with dignity, not bashing or attacking others or openly criticizing people's posts.......being transparent and showing my willingness to learn from others.....not being overly confident with my skills and realizing what I don't know...... Somebody has finally figured me out for the hack I am. Gad I can finally come out of the closet and stop acting like the 25 years of experience I have has any validity. I can stop acting like i'm safe and knowledgeable. I can stop trying to share experiences and knowledge that I clearly don't have because of the one recent freak accident. Thank you @AlanKekoa for allowing me to step out of the facade I've created over a very long history on this forum. I can now act like the piece of shit you have exposed of me. I guess instead of not attacking you in any shape or form and suggesting you maybe have a little respect for people who have been on here for eons before you insult them I should have just been a dick about it. Wow I feel better now. Huge weight lifted off me. Now I can go spike prunes and rig off my climbing line. Maybe next crane job I'll see what the safety factor is and try to pick way over my chart. Again thanks for the release. This has been weighing on me for so long as I sit and worry every night if people like and respect me. Oh and for shits and giggles, please give me one example where I pointed fingers at anyone and acted like I know everything.
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Amazing post Steve...
 
And here’s a comment to Jacob from a mature adult, a real honorable humble man, Mark Chisholm “Best of luck! We all dance on the edge with crane work from time to time. Don’t think otherwise”… For all the commenters of “I really don’t know who I’m talking to” I have a pretty good idea of the kind of guys I’m talking to who I’ve seen time and time again who spend their time boasting and putting down others in the internet and act as if they know it all, your abilities and skills don’t mean much to me compared to how you treat people.
 
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Wow ok thanks for the great thread. Maybe you guys can head over to the tree free zone to finish up getting to know each other?

That photo of one of the logs from the tree they were removing was pretty hollow, and one news article said the tree was waterlogged. I wonder if their picks to that point had been hollow and lighter than solid wood, so they started taking bigger picks than if they were in solid wood. Then the last pick was full of water in the hollow and was way too heavy. That's just a guess, I am interested in hearing what the actual cause was.

Glad it didn't turn out worse.
 
Njdelaney said:
I have met him in person, as well as seen how he runs his business and does his job. I contacted him to do work for my parents, who have a huge mature garden and landscape they have built over 30 years. They had multiple large dead trees with a tiny drop zone and beloved mature plants all around. These trees were beyond my ability to remove safely as a solo climber without smashing anything. The job required a lift to be done safely. @VenasNursery is a great guy who runs a tight ship. His equipment, in this case trucks, saws, mini skid and spider lift, is all maintained in excellent condition. He takes great pride in his work. He and his employees actually know how to talk to clients and work with them. He and his crew were efficient, thorough, safe and went above and beyond what the scope of work was while still finishing the project 2 hours early. I, and my parents, could not have been happier with them. This is one of the only experiences I can remember them having with a contractor where nothing bad happened. So, @AlanKekoa you should be ashamed of yourself for disparaging people the way you are. You really don't know what you're talking about.
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Thank you sir
You and your whole family are great people also!
 
This thread reminded me of remote rigging with a previous employer. Removing a maple that just too far away for the crane to reach, so my boss had me set long straps and pull the ball over with a polesaw to clip on. I’m of a slight build and that ball was freaking heavy! I didn’t know better to fully object but did yell out “this is fucking stupid” loud enough for neighbors to hear. Crane operator didn’t object either. Trunk wood took big swings.
 
rico said:
Next up is another vid which was referenced here. This one is very pertinent to the discussion at hand-


Jake and the boys use their crane as a remote rigging point, and treat us to some shitty subpar cuts...Nuff said..
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Man, I just want to make an observation here regarding the video where they swung the top onto the crane. I don't know if you noticed or not, but when the top fell, it got hung up on the cable and it actually swung down on the pendulum UPRIGHT. Or am I just seeing things? Anyway, I don't know if they realize this or not, but had that top decided to break loose and flip down after it had come to rest at the bottom of the pendulum, THAT could had momentarily exceeded the max load of 6,000 lb he mentioned. Now whether it would have flipped the crane is probably not likely since it wasn't a sustained load, but still. As for the pendulum swing itself, I calculate it only came in at around 900 lb peak force.

I treated the hung top it like a negative rigging scenario. I guessed the top was 16 ft long, 300 lb, and that the sling was something like 20 ft of 3/4" Yalex or something else with similar EA value (and that's being friendly). Basically, had it broken loose, and assuming no wind resistance, it would have dumped about 4,200 ft-lb of energy into a short sling. I'm counting the steel cable as rigid with no elasticity. Using Yale's method, I estimate they could have generated a 9,800 lb peak load if the top had flipped down. If the sling was less forgiving than Yalex, then if could be more. They ideally should have had about 33 ft of sling between ball and butt hitch to stay under the 6,000 lb point. Of course this is all mathematical, but still worth pondering.
 
AlanKekoa said:
And here’s a comment to Jacob from a mature adult, a real honorable humble man, Mark Chisholm “Best of luck! We all dance on the edge with crane work from time to time. Don’t think otherwise”… For all the commenters of “I really don’t know who I’m talking to” I have a pretty good idea of the kind of guys I’m talking to who I’ve seen time and time again who spend their time boasting and putting down others in the internet and act as if they know it all, your abilities and skills don’t mean much to me compared to how you treat people.
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You speak of boasting..Curious as to who's been boasting during this thread?

You speak about treatment of others. Curious as to exactly who's been treated badly in this thread?
 
Birdyman88 said:
Man, I just want to make an observation here regarding the video where they swung the top onto the crane. I don't know if you noticed or not, but when the top fell, it got hung up on the cable and it actually swung down on the pendulum UPRIGHT. Or am I just seeing things?
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I watched it a couple of times at 0.25X speed. Neither camera angle is very good for seeing how it falls and loads. I'm unsure if it hung on the cable, but it's awkward geometry since it initially falls towards the cable and then has to rotate away from the cable as the swing is completed and it loads the cable. I see it coming to rest butt end up. It seems like the rotation, then counter rotation could make peak force higher than for a simple swing.
 
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