check out this nasty rotten crotch!

[robinia]

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Legomaniac, You tricked us all with the "nice butt!!!" title

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My next one will be called "Check out this nasty rotten crotch!"

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You thought I was kidding didn’t you?

As promised/threatened here is the other tree in question. Same situation: basically any and all attempts at preservation are appreciated. I won’t abuse the kindness of strangers any further than this second tree!
Here are the details: Acer saccharum planted in 1876. This whole row is a landmark for the school and the city in general.

That is a very busy street and sidewalk, including a bus stop right in front. I work on this whole row at least once a year but can only do so much. You can see a second row planted behind these to replace them, but the word “removal” is still met with some serious apprehension.

The biggest is the worst. 34" DBH

That whole right side is attached in here:

It is the west side, so it would fail against the prevailing winds, but stranger things have happened right?

I installed two cobra cables about two years ago in sort of a better-than-nothing move.

There are no shock absorbers and they are installed fairly tight to limit movement. The reason they are installed so low is this:

That’s about halfway up the tree, around 50 feet. I’ve done some picking and hammering in there to feel around and it actually felt pretty solid. However, there are annual ‘shrooms up there and I didn’t want to anchor cables above that, just incase a failure pulled the middle section out too!

Big can of worms huh? The tree is really stunning in leaf - full healthy canopy. I take out a few dead limbs a year but that’s about it.

Any thoughts? You were all a big help on the Beech (so far! That’s still a work in progress) So any input, ideas, experience is appreciated.
Thanks in advance,
Rob

 

[southsoundtree]

I don't know about Acer saccharum specifically.

Looks like that tree is potentially deadly. Bad defects in a high population area.

No brace rods, just Cobra? Seems like a static cable prescription, no? Is it because of the decay potential?
What size Cobra are those?

Lighten the canopy in that weakly attached lead by light thinning and reduction. What about thinning/ reducing the lead with the cavity?

What about cabling to that high,back lead, opposite the street, that looks not to have the same cavity situation?

General cultural practices.
Decompaction? Maybe they already aerate the turf?
Increased mulch.

Remove dead stubs that will delay cambium callousing over the cavity.

Prevailing wind seems to mean that when it gusty, it will blow into the weak crotch, with rebound momentum forcing away from the weak crotch.

What is the fungus?

 

[Paul Biester]

From what I see it looks like it is VERY close to time to part with this tree!!Our job at times is to make a tough call. Deciding to remove this one with all of its maladies is not a tough call. What I mean is that you would be well justified removing it. ask yourself this question :Would I rather keep the tree cause its bic and has great fall color but it falls ,or take it down now knowing you did not jump the cun but potentially saved some damage?

 

[guymayor]

[ QUOTE ]
...Our job at times is to make a tough call...

[/ QUOTE ]Our job with high-risk trees is to inform owners of options and let THEM make the call. We are fools if we accept the risk of deciding, unless we are paid well to do a thorough job. Why take on the job of managing when we are just called to assess???

How many people will be under it during storms?

Good post by Sean.

 

[Toparboring]

Hmmm frost cracking, hollow with habitated by squirels most likly, and an Acer familly tree. Time to inform the people of a loss. It peobably take a good gust of wind to clean off the lower branch,and snap the main lead in two.Time to remove.

 

[southsoundtree]

If they are set on retention, you could also add some "cabling" product, maybe Cobra or other similar product (check manufacturer's instructions/ precautions), from the lead that is far out to the right (opposite the sidewalk) to the weaker side as a fall arrest to reduce possibility of falling branches reaching the sidewalk.

Seems dangerous no matter what.

Fencing around the tree to keep the public away.

If we ignore wind carrying of branches for the moment, how tall is the tree, and how far is the sidewalk?

If a big storm is coming, maybe Campus Safety Department can have someone watch the area. Of course, if it is to this level of danger, prudence would say to do something to reduce the danger better.

Does the school have a formal future management plan. I read that the school has planted the replacement row. How is the structure in that row--prevention? How long do they "plan" for that one tree to stay? Seems like they would, or should have formal tree plan, that has flexibility for future events, growth, storms, construction updates, etc.

 

[Paul Biester]

I guess im a fool.........Ive been called worse! Im not one of those who lives in fear of litigation!!!! In my state (nj) i am a certified tree expert. I am called by clients to "make the call". It is part of what I get paid to do!?

 

[guymayor]

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...I am called by clients to "make the call". It is part of what I get paid to do!?

[/ QUOTE ]How long does it take you to make the call, and do you charge by the hour for the consultation??

Maybe you missed this part: "unless we are paid well to do a thorough job."

You made the call on this one in a matter of seconds, based on pictures on a little screen. Is that defendable?

The first observation is: the tree has stood up to all the stresses and strains that nature has thrown at it up to now. Then go from there.

nj cert is a fine cert i am certain but it does not give you papal infallibility.

Ever install a brace rod?

 

[Paul Biester]

youre way over the top brother get over yourself!!
The dude Asked for an opinion based on the photos, I gave him my 2 cents worth based on THE PHOTOS! Its an opinion to another arborist! thats it! no big deal!!
Never said I was infallable .....not sure why you went there? are you angry at me for something I said? If you knew me at all you would no for certain that I a am FAR from infallable.....I foul up alot........I call it .....living.
I do charge for tree risk assesments.I just really happen to like that aspect of what we do.I try to be a student of it and learn as much as possible about why trees fail.
Defendable?!? to whom? you? or the treebuzz police.

 

[rfwoodvt]

TWEEEET! Referee's whistle...

I'm not a big fan of static cables but this might be one of those situations. I can't help but wonder if that along with pre-rigging using some like tree-save could manage that to an acceptable risk level.

Is it possible to run a cable high into that "questionable" central leader then back-staying it to a lower stronger limb on the opposite side? (or two to form a "pyramid" with the cables?)

Seems if it is a preservation at all costs you might also want to talk with an engineer to see about fabricating some kind of free standing rigid support system.

We've got a guy up Nawth here that has done that on several occasions for high historical value trees. At first I thought it was nutz and overkill but seeing the finished projects made me rethink that.

Time and a place for everything seems to be my recurring lesson!

 

[robinia]

I appreciate ALL the opinions, so take it easy everyone. I am the first to admit that this is hard to judge by photos alone. We can all see the defects but this is really just a brainstorming session: removal is a very obvious "idea".

I'm actually most concerned about the middle central leader. As far as I'm concerned If you (me) have serious concerns about simply TYING into it, there is a significant and very real danger of failure.
Therefor one idea is to remove the middle. This will look odd undoubtably, sort of an exagerated hydro prune! The lead over the road could then be tied back to the remaining vertical and a long, horizontal to the opposite side of the tree.
Any other ideas?

 

[robinia]

and my name is not 'dude'.

 

[robinia]

[ QUOTE ]
Therefor one idea is to remove the middle. This will look odd undoubtably, sort of an exagerated hydro prune! The lead over the road could then be tied back to the remaining vertical and a long, horizontal to the opposite side of the tree.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sort of like this:

The two top cables would be dynamic, and maybe replace the existing bottom ones with steel. I don't see a point in roding the trunk. There's no way I could pull that together!

 

[robinia]

I deleted a bunch of photopucket pics and it screwed up this post. I'll have to redo them.

 

[guymayor]

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I don't see a point in roding the trunk. There's no way I could pull that together!

[/ QUOTE ]A brace rod might not pull it back together, but it could prevent further pulling apart. The BMP's may call for one, but I'm not sure it's needed. Nice job with the cobra, btw--it did buy some time.

2 options in the attached pic. if the rot is not real bad, just thin the crown like the yellow lines show. If the rot is real bad, cut at the red lines and steel cable where the orange is. pvw's take on this would be interesting.

taitree,

no offense meant, but this set me off:

"...you would be well justified removing it. ask yourself this question :Would I rather keep the tree cause its bic and has great fall color but it falls ,or take it down now knowing you did not jump the cun but potentially saved some damage?"

It was the lack of mitigation options considered that troubled me. Also I did not understand grammatically what you were saying. If we are here to "potentially save some damage" then we have to clearcut everything.

It's never as simple as "keep, or cut?" Too many tools available to us.

 

[Paul Biester]

k dude!

 

[Paul Biester]

Guess i should have proof read that one huh? it looked like Holly wrote that.....

 

[SJ_Treeguy]

You and Holly have been trading to many responces

 

[guymayor]

that stinking thinking must be contagious!

if the tree is not growing yet maybe the light pruning can happen; otherwise midsummer. the red cuts would be severe and probably accelerate heartrot to the base.

 

[HÖLLENREICH]

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"Guess i should have proof read that one huh? it looked like Holly wrote that..... " You and Holly have been trading to many responces


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If it was me I'd of said whatever Dudete, don't be such a panty wad. Along with cut the danm thing down or reduce by 2/3rds. Mian option cut it down you girl scout your just milking the money.