Candidate for preservation?

[Alec]

I found myself talking to the owner of a Norway Maple in a way that would likely lead them towards removal. I'd love to know what room you all see for preservation.

The tree was in the 48" range, maybe 70' tall. Large number of branches with dead zones on the top/tension side. Reaction wood seemed slow in forming - appeared to be in formation for years but very thin nonetheless. Hard to imagine the tree adding material fast enough to compensate for decay. This being in a backyard in Brooklyn NY, it extends over 4 properties - over hard targets and small yards frequented by people. Full canopy likely NOT accessible by bucket truck. Not sure how far into the future I would recommend putting a climber into the tree.



Any reasonable room for preservation here? Bonus question: any strength loss formulas out there that you all are particularly drawn to?

Many thanks!

 

[ATH]

Pics 1 and 2 don't look too scary...but 3rd and 4th don't leave me much hope for long-term viability.

How much of the rest of the tree looks like each of those pictures?

 

[JD3000]

Wounds from sunscald due to overpruning?

 

[Alec]

Thanks for weighing in.

I reduced the limb in the third photo back to the only remaining, sad little lateral. The fourth photo was of the South leader, which appears to have been topped. Not much to work with on the South side at all

 

[ATH]

can you just take off that south side? Might leave the tree mis-shapen, but when you get into mature tree preservation, it is about keeping what you can sometimes recognizing it won't be ideal, but if the client thinks that is better than no tree at all, it may well be the best option.

If it was topped, that is probably sunscald as @JD3000 said - typical of Norway maple that has been over-pruned.

 

[Alec]

I think sun scald is a good call. My primary question is if the scalded branches are destined to fail or if there's any chance of keeping them viable. Basically every major branch coming off the better of the two leaders is scalded. First photo in the original post is the major union of the better leader. You can see by my foot, bark coming off in all directions.

This is probably a good time to mention a decent sized wound/cavity below the union of the two leaders. Looks like a large limb tore out. I don't think it's of immediate concern, but I wonder if taking the ruined leader out will speed decay in that area.



Sorry I don't have a good pick of the whole tree. Silly oversight.

 

[ATH]

.... I don't think it's of immediate concern, but I wonder if taking the ruined leader out will speed decay in that area.
....

Probably will speed that decay. But if the difference is whether decay is too bad in 15 years or 20 years, I am not thinking that we are looking at this tree having 15 years left, are we? Communicate expectations with the client. "This tree might have XX years left (10???). It may be more or less than that. I recommend a biennial inspection which may be changed to annual to monitor for elevated hazardous conditions." The client needs to decide if it is worth that investment or if getting a new tree sooner than later is the better option.

 

[JD3000]

The "jelly fungi" consume dead wood and aren't likely to attack healthy sapwood and woundwood. However, we don't know what other fungi are at play in these same areas. Given the sizes of the wounds, you should consider these areas as potentially far more likely to fail in bending moment situations. Norways don't have the best track records for these situations either

Got more pics of the tree overall where you could mark for us the areas in question?

 

[RopeShield]

more observations, we are looking at a living organism with living parts.
need the whole of the tree, leaves buds, twigs, roots/collar, root zone.
Tree is growing/forming new wood? or is it slow, or in suspended animation or dieing.
Is it sprouting/putting up a good fight?
I try to save everything if it can be but some times they decide it for you.
Preserve if it is showing signs it wants to

 

[colb]

I like what @ATH said about getting the clients' expectations in order in terms of survival and cost.

You're the man on the scene here - a complex scene. You have to figure out target occupancy rates and values, protection factors, risk level that your client is okay with, how often you'll get to work on the tree, etc. Once you know all of that, you have to make your work with wind force leverage reduction (wholely or partially through reduction or retrenchment pruning) + the tree's work on developing wound wood stay ahead of the decay process. There may also be room to install supplemental support, but remember that installing supplemental support for one risky limb by another risky limb isn't always supportive.

Try to figure out the health of the tree as well, and tend to that. You're focusing on structural issues, which is good, and keeping the health on point will be important as well. Mulching with arb chips might be good and easy, right?

Lastly, point out *all* the benefits of the tree to the client - psychological wellness, water absorption, shade, aesthetic beauty (damaged trees can sometimes be as/more beautiful than normal trees), soil stabilization, etc. list it all so that the client realizes all the benefits and can weigh that against the risks.

 

[ATH]

more observations, we are looking at a living organism with living parts.
need the whole of the tree, leaves buds, twigs, roots/collar, root zone.
Tree is growing/forming new wood? or is it slow, or in suspended animation or dieing.
Is it sprouting/putting up a good fight?
I try to save everything if it can be but some times they decide it for you.
Preserve if it is showing signs it wants to

Looks like a pretty aggressive flush of branch growth in the middle of the second picture...

I like to keep them to...but the client needs to understand the plan and associated expenses.

 

[JeffGu]

My wife and I have been experimenting, the last few years, with using ordinary, black weed guard cloth to mitigate sun scald on our fruit trees. We use cheap, 1/8" bungee cord to hold it to the stems, at the top and bottom. In Nebraska, the problem occurs mostly in fall and winter, when the trees have dropped their leaves and the sunlight angles are shallow. So far, we're having very good results... even badly scalded ones have healed over better and recovered nicely. Before the night temps are below freezing, we'll sometimes first wrap lightly with insulation (usually water pipe wrap) to mitigate freeze/thaw scald.

We've only done this on small fruit trees that have 2 to 15 years on them since planting. I'd love to know if it helps on mature trees, as well.

 

[guymayor]

Sounds like a branch-by-branch decision.

I used to give an expected lifespan, but after a while I became aware that there were so many unknowable factors that I was just pulling numbers out of my aspirations for credibility.

 

[Alec]

Thanks for all of the feedback. Really insightful and helpful, not only for this jobs, but with respect to business and tree care generally. Thank you all so much. Feels great to have a venue where I'm not expected to be the expert!

 

[Serf Life]

KILL IT!! Norway maples should have been banned decades ago. Have seen too many ecosystems over-run by them and one mature tree puts out a prodigious amount of seeds. My 0.02.

 

[dmonn]

Don't kill MY Norway maples. After EAB and buckthorn, most of what I have left in my woods are Norways and boxelders. Most of my maples are pretty healthy considering the damage done by nearby limbfalls from dead Green Ash and BEs.

 

[ATH]

@dmonn - you just described to a T the problem outlined by @Serf Life ! If we want diversity and health in our woodlands and natural areas, we need to control the invasive species. How big is your woods? May be worth having a forester review it with you to come up with a plan to move forward. There are ways to get moving in the right direction without removing all of them at once.

 

[macrocarpa]

Somewhat off topic but its amazing to see the difference between a forest reaching the "old growth" stages with open understory and limited invasives compared to a more recently disturbed forest with all the junk you can barely walk through it. Now with the ash dead the invasives have really taken off. My local neighborhood park is being overtaken by pear now.

What do you guys think about this video from the Old Growth Forest Network? I FOR SURE think the invasives have to be managed but beyond that I question humans being able to do it better than nature:

 

[Basswood]

Like others have said Norway maples aren’t a very valuable species in NY due to their invasive character. In my opinion that significantly reduces the merit for preservation but the client may think otherwise.

On the flip side you may be able to use that to your benefit along with the health factors for removal. it may make a remove and replace angle more attainable as well.

 

[Alec]

I spent my early career doing exclusively woodland restoration so I've spent a lot of time removing Norway Maple! Nothing I love more than having an excuse to recommend punishing one. And then you walk into a Brooklyn backyard where it's the only tree and suddenly it seems like a worthwhile specimen. I often try to get folks to consider staged succession - getting a higher value specimen in the ground now for a transition some day.