Can trees be too big to cable?

Hello Hive Mind,

I've been working in SE Louisiana and getting to know the stunning Southern Live Oaks [SLO]. For a tough-as-nails tree, they tear out with surprising frequency at included unions (and then continue to live for ages largely unaffected by the tear out). A local pro suggested that cabling the largest dia. SLOs isn't effective because he's seen the hardware pull right through the tree :oops:. Looking at the ANSI minimum hardware standards I realize that the chart maxes out at 30" dia. SLO do have branches over 30". Questions:
  1. Is it not recommended to cable anything over 30"?
  2. Would a traditional bolt and washer be less likely to pull through than something like a wire stop?
  3. Can washers be stacked to reinforce them?
  4. Do folks ever use extra large dia washers?
  5. Is this a situation where a cable or sling going around the tree might prove more structurally sound since they can't pull through?
  6. How're y'all handling beefy trees?
Any feedback appreciated.

Thanks,

- Alec

@guymayor, @colb, @ATH , @Tom Dunlap, @evo
 
I’ll write more later:
Yes heavy washers, not ideal due to the shape and they don’t callus over as well but big ass foundation washers or bridge washers work well.
Consider installing two cables vs one, triangle systems are the strongest, avoid overloading your anchor side of the cable.
EHS and Ammon eye nuts are my go to. Make damn sure the hardware is inline with the cable.

I have no experience with live oak, but I can picture it fairly well. The challenge going to be finding good angles and good anchors.

Cabling is amazing when done right and unfortunately it’s not for every tree the stars have to align somewhere unfortunately.
 
as an indirect response, I will say I’m usually trying to look for pruning options to reduce leveraging weight rather than cabling, but still cabling at times. Pruning can be a more permanent long term solution, is how I see it.

Live oaks are completely incredible. I visit SC coast in the summer and I’m always blown away. Have fun with them!
 
Like @evo said, I'd think finding angles is going to be the hardest part.

You need to estimate the load of the branches, not just diameter. If you reduce weight (agree with @Stumpsprouts that should be the first goal), the load on a 40" diameter could be less than the load on a 24" diameter.

I'm sold on Preformed Lines Wedge Grips after they held through a tornado...no, the tree was destroyed...but the grips were still in place - one wired even cut through the side of a 12" stem and the grip didn't let go. I posted pics here somewhere... probably search my name and "tornado" and you'll find them.
 
Large southern live oak limbs do require additional support that matches the loads they will experience. Unfortunately, there is some disconnect between installation, materials, and hurricanes. I will not comment on the ANSI A300 standard because it is not in front of me and I have not read the cabling section from the 2023 revision. I do not currently cable and have not for 3 or 4 years.

You need to have a green log weight chart. Southern live oak is about 5/4ths the density of other oaks in the area, and even more dense than pines. You should estimate the weight of the limb so that you know what you are dealing with. Then consider the force of that weight in the wind, and gravitationally when it gets wet. If you choose to install metal cabling, chances are that it will fail in a hurricane for two reasons; the largest metal cabling spec does not provide enough support to a large live oak limb, and when a hurricane comes along the flex in the limb will unweight the limb, putting a dynamic load on the branch when it is reweighted, which is a weakness for metal cabling. You cannot make the cabling tight instead of taut to prevent this unloading because the large diameter is not capable of being winched up, and because the ANSI standard likely still says "taut". If the metal cabling breaks, the limb is in a compromised state because the longer the cable was installed, the more the tree became dependent on it for support during ordinary conditions. Now it is unsupported during above-ordinary loads. For this reason, the only material that I am aware of that is suitable is the product sold by Wesspur - a dynamic cabling system that is rated by the manufacturer for very large loads. Dynamic systems, however, suck because of cultural factors - the owner moves and the next guy does not maintain the cable, or the arborist moves on. End of the day, tell me how you are going to service a very large tree over its life span - you probably will not. I am acquainted with two very large southern live oaks with metal cabling systems and both broke. I did not install either of them. I did not see the initial installation, but the tiny cables look undersized next to the wood.

Southern live oaks of largest stature often grow in sunny locations and this means that they are about 75-85 feet tall and spreading much more than that. The spread often means that there is little in the way of a central leader, and it can be tempting to install the cable much lower than 2/3rds the way between the crotch and the tips. A 2/3rds installation can even have the cable running under the branch it is supporting in order to make it out that far. You need to have a narrative to justify installing it at a lower location - one that is defensible in court.

The other problem with very large live oaks is that if they appear to require bracing you may need a very long bit. American Arborist supply can make a bit that is 15' long. The room where their kit is will not accommodate a longer bit. They make the longest bit I am aware of. The bit is 2' of fluting and 13 ft of shaft. When the flute exits a trunk it falls down onto the shaft before you can get it in the next trunk, so it's a bit difficult to drill. The shaft is also subject to torsional and bending forces that are greater than they are for shorter bits, so have a plan for if the bit breaks. In part, you should have a lithium-powered drill with a clutch, made by Milwaukee (superhawg, not hole hawg) or Makita's new version which this forum reports is more powerful than the Milwaukee. This keeps your thumb from getting ripped off when the bit jams in the wood, and may keep the bit from breaking as well. You will need some plan to either use multiple bits or to support the long run of shaft between the drill and the tree. Be careful of extensions since the attachment may be greater diameter than the hole, and some types of attachment may come undone inside the tree.

End of day, imho, try to reduction prune the largest southern live oaks in 4" diameter wood, dead wood them, prune trees next to them to provide access to sunlight for the ends of the low branches, and mulch them. This is a love and leave specification.
 
Guess I need to get a copy of the 2023. I don’t think ISA has updated theirs yet…

Anyway, reading your post and never seeing a southern live oak has led me to some thought.

Is EHS strong enough? Isn’t 3/8ths good for 28,000 lbs?

This seems like the perfect application for a euro BMP cabling system! Where a static is installed about 1/3-1/2 then a dynamic at 3/4ish.
 
Too bad that the work that Ken James has done in Australia hasn’t been replicated around the world. By installing load cells in trees he has been able to calculate loads and reactions from trees The research doesn’t cost a lot of money either

Another way to grok large bracing systems is to study how naval engineers in the age of sail designed rigging

Head down to a historic shipyard and absorb t to he similarities

Onboard ship there are two sets of rigging The static and dynamic. Most tree related systems are dynamic because the whole tree is moving. In the case of mature. Trees there is the core portion that moves more or less. As one

Live oak has survived by shedding small parts to save the big parts.

If you can find a mechanical engineer or architect who is knowledgeable about Statics they should be able to give you insights

We’re working with a 3D object which grows basically in a radial system. The effect of pi and the cubing and tripling of loads adds up quick
 
I put in a bid to install a cable system in the 2nd-3rd largest sycamore in Oklahoma. Was going to have RigGuy make me custom 9/16’s” terminations for EHS. Was assuming five 9/16’s cables and three 3/8’s.

A 100 ton with two winches was going to be brought in to give me a floating tie in point above the 90’+ canopy and tension the leads for install. A second 20t was going to be on tap to possibly assist with anything else.

Estimated $12,000 to complete. Luckily a 110mph storm gave it an aggressive “forced reduction” and supplemental support was no longer needed.

A previous branch was removed about 30 years ago that was over the house. This 35” cut decayed about 3’+ down and was mush. It was so large, I cleaned it out with a grain shovel.

Previous employee in photo. Last photo was the tree after the storm and loosing 1/4 of its canopy.
 

Attachments

  • IMG_6677.webp
    IMG_6677.webp
    541.7 KB · Views: 29
  • IMG_0968.webp
    IMG_0968.webp
    139.7 KB · Views: 29
Consider propping it instead of cabling. Mulberries often grow like smaller Live Oaks and an attractive and well-designed prop can be just the ticket. Think concrete pier foundation and large diameter wood with a thru-bolt for connection. The pier can be small because a little movement is probably good to help the tree continue making reaction wood but reduction pruning seems like the first thing to do! My .02
 
Guess I need to get a copy of the 2023. I don’t think ISA has updated theirs yet…

Anyway, reading your post and never seeing a southern live oak has led me to some thought.

Is EHS strong enough? Isn’t 3/8ths good for 28,000 lbs?

This seems like the perfect application for a euro BMP cabling system! Where a static is installed about 1/3-1/2 then a dynamic at 3/4ish.
I am noting 15,400 lbs. for 3/8ths EHS at TreeStuff in their product notes.

I asked the ISA via email if there was intent to update the BMPs to dovetail with the new ANSI A300 and they did not respond. I also asked whether the current BMPs were intended to complement the current ANSI A300 and they did not respond to that either.
 
  • Like
Reactions: evo
A 100 ton with two winches was going to be brought in to give me a floating tie in point above the 90’+ canopy and tension the leads for install. A second 20t was going to be on tap to possibly assist with anything else.

Estimated $12,000 to complete. Luckily a 110mph storm gave it an aggressive “forced reduction” and supplemental support was no longer needed.
Cody, this is really a monumental plan. 8 steel cables to install, two cranes, holy moly. And in the end, the storm did the work for free. The best laid plans of mice and men…

With 20/20 vision, would you still make the same plan for that tree, or would you consider a somewhat less aggressive reduction instead? Or some combination of both?
 
  • Like
Reactions: ATH
Cody, this is really a monumental plan. 8 steel cables to install, two cranes, holy moly. And in the end, the storm did the work for free. The best laid plans of mice and men…

With 20/20 vision, would you still make the same plan for that tree, or would you consider a somewhat less aggressive reduction instead? Or some combination of both?
It was intimidating, failed lead would demolish the home!

Depends on budget. The decay on the previous branch removal is pretty bad, but it did not seem to breach into the remaining stems by much. I personally would still install a system just because the target area is huge.

One season after the storm, the tree threw on hoards of epicormic sprouts, and seems to not have missed a beat.

I know if that storm hit after the STSS install, all the cables would be slack and need replaced or adjusted from the hubs.

We maintained it for years, even down to pneumatically excavating holes for the fence posts. The fence was designed around the tree with minimal impact.
 

Attachments

  • IMG_0784.webp
    IMG_0784.webp
    444.4 KB · Views: 5
  • IMG_0785.webp
    IMG_0785.webp
    480.5 KB · Views: 5
I am noting 15,400 lbs. for 3/8ths EHS at TreeStuff in their product notes.

I asked the ISA via email if there was intent to update the BMPs to dovetail with the new ANSI A300 and they did not respond. I also asked whether the current BMPs were intended to complement the current ANSI A300 and they did not respond to that either.
Thanks, I guess I got confused with 1/2” EHS. https://lifting.com/wire-rope-ehs-0...LLGa_EDBzq-OTmmSOwnVQnmvfu_zYeu2538lIbnQ0e8Ap

A long while back I saw an elm tree on a property. I got all judgmental when I saw the ‘cabling’ system installed 1/4-1/2 height from the union. The property also had many cavity filled trees with brick rubble and concrete.
I had to take a step back in my head and realize that this was likely all done a long time ago and it was cutting edge stuff back in the day.
Anyway the ‘cable’ had very large eye though bolts and it was actually an old chain. Probably someone working with what they had available at the time (living on an island and supplies aren’t easily available).
I hope to see it again someday

If someone wants to go wild.. 3/4” EHS can be found. https://lifting.com/wire-rope-ehs-034.html
 

New threads New posts

Kask Stihl NORTHEASTERN Arborists Wesspur TreeStuff.com Teufelberger Westminster X-Rigging Teufelberger
Back
Top Bottom