Camden Man Hurt While Doing Tree Work

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...Diddo.....
.....I post these accidents so we may learn, not ridicule, mock or laugh at.

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Diddo again! Constructive analysis is beneficial, character assassination is not constructive analysis.

I have no problem with placing blame on a person as it's due, but we don't have to denigrate them in the process.
 
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hi everybody

i was the first responder at this accident. i don't think i can comment too much because of my job but i think i can comment on a few of the points that were touched on in the article.

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Thank you Lou, that's great info. I wish more of you guys had the chance chime in on these... local news is a pathetic source of information.


OK Holly, you're right, you do know more about this than most of us... but that doesn't make the guy stupid, only poorly trained... and that CAN be fixed. I took a 6" limb butt in the chest a couple of years ago, it was a stupid mistake but one that would've been hard to anticipate. It was hard to move for a while. I can see why he didn't come down, especially without a lifeline. The was obviously trained by a jackass. I can't think of another reason why a climber with access to modern gear would ascend a big tree without a lifeline.

Still, I think you could stand to take the edge off your comments.
 
Thamks for your input HTPD43.

There's still a few things about this scenario that baffles me.

The guy had no bodyline, but he did have an apparently functioning lowering line, and it was in his right hand.

If you speak spanish then why not instruct him to tie the lowering line to his lower saddle D rings and safely lower him to the ground?

Additionally, I see no reason a qualified climber could not have gotten up to him with fresh lines and safely had him on the ground in 10 minutes time.

It sorta reminds me of the "rice bowl" rule being taken way too far. 2 1/2 hours seems kinda absurd from a veteran climber's perspective IMO.

Thanks again for your input HTPD43.

jomoco
 
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Thamks for your input HTPD43.

There's still a few things about this scenario that baffles me.

The guy had no bodyline, but he did have an apparently functioning lowering line, and it was in his right hand.

If you speak spanish then why not instruct him to tie the lowering line to his lower saddle D rings and safely lower him to the ground?

Additionally, I see no reason a qualified climber could not have gotten up to him with fresh lines and safely had him on the ground in 10 minutes time.

It sorta reminds me of the "rice bowl" rule being taken way too far. 2 1/2 hours seems kinda absurd from a veteran climber's perspective IMO.

Thanks again for your input HTPD43.

jomoco

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i don't disagree with your point of view. i did offer to go home to get my gear and go get him but i said it jokingly. if there was any real need to get the climber down asap, the technical rescue crew was ready to roll. as for him tying himself to a line - given the circumstances nobody wanted to risk the climber tying a line to his harness while he was injured - who was going to check to be sure he tied in properly? who would be responsible if he did not? not to mention the condition of the line itself - who could vouch for it?
as far as a qualified climber bringing him the fresh lines, that could have been a viable alternative, but again the need for urgency was not there. i don't mean to make it sound like there was no urgency in the rescue effort - there was, but the in the grand scheme of things, a decision was made that the safest rescue method would be deployed, even though it was more time consuming.
i was able to communicate with him, but he did a lot of motioning rather than responding verbally (possibly because of the ribs). he made it clear that he was hurt but that he was well enogh to wait in the tree. we kept in contact with him to be sure he stayed alert and conscious.
i am not a fire fighter or emt, however i have been around them on enough jobs to know that one of their priorites is keeping a patient as still as possible unless death is imminent. in this case it made more sense to keep him still and recue him with an arial platform than for him to descend or be lowered.

hope that helps
lou

ps - the technical rescue truck from one of the responding towns had slide out trays FULL of whatever rope and climbing gear you could possibly want. and it was all bagged and tagged - they had more in there than any of the stores around here that sell climbing gear. between the climbing gear and the saws that the different F.D.s pulled out - i was, shall we say, getting excited.
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and jomoco, what is the "rice bowl rule?"
 
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Thank you Lou, that's great info. I wish more of you guys had the chance chime in on these... local news is a pathetic source of information.

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i agree. it is almost comical reading the write ups in the paper after having been at one of these incidents. or any incident they report on for that matter.
 
Thanks again Lou.

The "rice bowl rule" is an unwritten protocol followed by a group of workers that delegates certain jobs be done by specific members of the group exclusively regardless of practicality to ensure each member has an income/job.

It's an asian concept/philosophy brought home by American sailors stationed in the orient. It was popularized in American cinema by Steve McQueen playing Jake Holman in the 1966 movie The Sand Pebbles.

jomoco
 
Thanks a lot Lou, Love your feedback. I can understand why the decision was made. Having just gone through the CPR course i know that the last resort is to move someone risk more injury. With cracked ribs there is the possibility of them puncturing something vital.

It really comes down to poor teaching. Holly if you know the company so well, instead of degrading them take a step to inform them and make them aware of safer practices. Maybe his teacher is just as ignorant to safe practice as he is. Then its the blind leading the blind, show them the light! Then its their choice to apply the information. Its hard for me to look at someone and call them stupid if they haven't been taught better. How are they supposed to know? In my opinion if you know someone is doing something wrong or improper and don't make them aware of how unsafe it is or show them a better way, you are just as much to blame as the one who taught them.

If your not part of the solution then your part of the problem!
 
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It really comes down to poor teaching. Holly if you know the company so well, instead of degrading them take a step to inform them and make them aware of safer practices. Maybe his teacher is just as ignorant to safe practice as he is. Then its the blind leading the blind, show them the light! Then its their choice to apply the information. Its hard for me to look at someone and call them stupid if they haven't been taught better. How are they supposed to know? In my opinion if you know someone is doing something wrong or improper and don't make them aware of how unsafe it is or show them a better way, you are just as much to blame as the one who taught them.

If your not part of the solution then your part of the problem!

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The maroon that runs the company is not open to teaching, besides teaching cost money. He's not willing to pay for lessons at a reasonable cost. Leaves one to say "ok see ya in the funny papers" guess it happened sooner than he thought it would huh?.

Glad to see I'm the putz on this as you have a picture of most likely an illeagle immy in a tree, no idea what he's doing, and prob working for half a real climber's rate. Guys only create a false pay scale, keep hourly wages down for the rest of us.


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The guy had no bodyline, but he did have an apparently functioning lowering line, and it was in his right hand.

If you speak spanish then why not instruct him to tie the lowering line to his lower saddle D rings and safely lower him to the ground?

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Cause the guy wouldn't have known how to tie in to get down hence the gaffs and just laynard. Did you even read Luo's whole post or just your selective lines of his post.

One wonders, if this was Nosack's company you'd all be calling him names and such like ya'll did about his show. Now we have a smack company just like his and it's kissy kissy.
 
Its "kissy kissy" because ALL of America doesnt know about every detail of this company. We see 1 picture, not a TV show highlighting his poor work practices.

You telling us he sucks isnt holding much water here either with your glorious track record of telling EVERYONE they suck at everything!
 
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telling EVERYONE they suck at everything!

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LMAO your funny, I don't go on here saying EVERYONE sucks. Just your little ISA club.
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Theres a select few on here I've picked on, not the wohle lot.

Jealous much, or are you lumping select vendors into this?
 
I think the ISA is a moneypit joke, BUT there certs have helped me at my job! The MAA is the best Arbo association in the country, Oldest and hardest test too!

Pants, gear, techniques, tree care providers, politics, saws, etc etc etc. i think you have hit pretty much every category.

and yes Bill Weber and his staff are dear friends of mine, I dont appreciate the way you went about that at all.
 
Guys this internal conflict, bickering, caustic, and uber critical remarks about each other and a man that had a climbing accident achieves nothing more than to damage the professionalism that drew me to this board in the first place.

I understand there will be disagreements, we're human, we see things from different perspectives, but my goodness do we really need all this to understand the guy wasn't up to speed in his climbing knowledge or skill? Who didn't know that after the OP?

I'm not impressed that it took two plus hours and all that equipment to get him down. I'm not at all impressed that no one even bothered to go up and take him a drink of water while he hung in one position for over two hours, but that's the way it was. We can learn and move on. We're not doing any good with the direction this thing is taking.
 
Thank You Ron, very well stated.

In regards to the rescue itself...I go though many accident reports every week (more than I'd like to see, and yes it does get depressing), the one fact is, if fire and/or police have to perform an A.R. the average time frame is 2-4 hours. They have to follow protocol.
 
Thank you SirTreeRat. I meant nothing critical towards the rescue or the rescuers. And thanks for helping me realize I needed to be clear about that.
 
I'm still concerned that no one troubled themselves to even go up and assess the climber's condition for 2 hours. If I'm trapped in a tree and there are people who can reach me I'd just as soon they didn't stand around 60' below waiting for somebody else to do the job. If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

At least take the guy some water for Christ's sake!
 
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I'm still concerned that no one troubled themselves to even go up and assess the climber's condition for 2 hours. If I'm trapped in a tree and there are people who can reach me I'd just as soon they didn't stand around 60' below waiting for somebody else to do the job. If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

At least take the guy some water for Christ's sake!

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x2
 
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Lou,
So nobody even went up to directly assess the guy's condition? He just stayed up there alone and injured for 2+ hours?

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k so im a little late to the party - haven't had a chance to log in for a while. i wouldn't say he was alone, we made every effort to keep in constant communication with him. we also made sure to keep his boss close by to help keep him comfortable so he wasn't completely surrounded by strangers. he was up in the tree by himself - yes. alone - no. and i can't recall exactly, but i thought that water was made available for him- i wasn't at the tree for the entire show - i had other responsibilities.
 
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