Cambium saver installation

[vanski]

Hi,

And sorry if (and when) this topic may have already been addressed on the forums.

However, I'd ask for tips in installing a cambium saver, such as Petzl treesbee in a tree. Purpose is recreational tree climbing (geocaching) with SRT.

The system I'm using to install and retrieve the treesbee from the ground as described in the Petzl technical notice https://m.petzl.com/sfc/servlet.shepherd/version/download/0681r00000GGDOOAA5 works fine as long as the branch I'm using is the lowest branch or at least does not have any other branches directly below it. If there are any other branches below, using the technique described in the technical notice will get the treesbee to get stuck in the lower branch when hauling it upwards.

On the other hand I'd like to have branches below the one I'm using for the cambium saver for safety reasons, i.e. that there would be some sort of backup branch below to catch the SRT rope in case the original branch would unexpectedly break for some reason.

Is there a practical and good way to be able to install treesbee to some higher branch, which has several branches directly beneath it, or is it impossible? I.e. is the only way to put the rope itself directly over the branch (with rope protector) and forget about the cambium saver/treesbee in these kind of trees?

 

[Tuebor]

Why are you using a cambium saver for SRT? If you are, are you setting a crown anchor or a basal anchor?

 

[vanski]

Basal anchor

Why are you using a cambium saver for SRT? If you are, are you setting a crown anchor or a basal anchor?

To damage the tree as little as possible, in the case of geocaching plenty of people climb to the same tree, even using possibly the very same branch for their rope, which is why it should be impacted as little as possible. Also to keep my rope in good condition.

I'm using basal anchor (typically art snake anchor).

Are you saying that cambium saver is not a good idea on SRT? Why is that? Due to doubling the force at the branch?

 

[climbstihl]

Basal anchor

To damage the tree as little as possible, in the case of geocaching plenty of people climb to the same tree, even using possibly the very same branch for their rope, which is why it should be impacted as little as possible. Also to keep my rope in good condition.

I'm using basal anchor (typically art snake anchor).

Are you saying that cambium saver is not a good idea on SRT? Why is that? Due to doubling the force at the branch?

It's not that it's not a good idea, just unnecessary most of the time. A ring and ring friction saver makes a great canopy anchor though, especially if you use a lot of redirects, something you usually don't do whdn geocaching.

 

[Jan_]

The Friction on a branch is very small in SRT. You wont damage the branch by not using a friction saver. To damage the tree as little as possible, use a canopy TIP.

You'll have the same issue as with the friction saver though: the rope will get cinched around the lowest branch if you capture multiple. To solve this issue you need to isolate a branch, so there is only a single branch captured by the throwline.

You could also just use a normal base tie, the wear on the tree is negligible. I occasionally do T5 caching too, and I'd use a base tie if the situation requires it. As long as you're not using spurs you wont damage the tree in any significant way.

 

[climbstihl]

The Friction on a branch is very small in SRT. You wont damage the branch by not using a friction saver. To damage the tree as little as possible, use a canopy TIP.

You'll have the same issue as with the friction saver though: the rope will get cinched around the lowest branch if you capture multiple. To solve this issue you need to isolate a branch, so there is only a single branch captured by the throwline.

You could also just use a normal base tie, the wear on the tree is negligible. I occasionally do T5 caching too, and I'd use a base tie if the situation requires it. As long as you're not using spurs you wont damage the tree in any significant way.

Or if you're natural crotching MRS.

 

[vanski]

It's not that it's not a good idea, just unnecessary most of the time. A ring and ring friction saver makes a great canopy anchor though, especially if you use a lot of redirects, something you usually don't do whdn geocaching.

Yes, that's typically the case in what I'm doing, i.e. go up, log the cache, descent down. So not much moving around in the canopy currently, allthough I'm interested to start practising that as well..

 

[vanski]

The Friction on a branch is very small in SRT. You wont damage the branch by not using a friction saver. To damage the tree as little as possible, use a canopy TIP.

You'll have the same issue as with the friction saver though: the rope will get cinched around the lowest branch if you capture multiple. To solve this issue you need to isolate a branch, so there is only a single branch captured by the throwline.

You could also just use a normal base tie, the wear on the tree is negligible. I occasionally do T5 caching too, and I'd use a base tie if the situation requires it. As long as you're not using spurs you wont damage the tree in any significant way.

Ok. So if I manage to isolate the branch (can be difficult with a tree with lots of branches), at the same time I loose the backup of having a lower branch captured by the rope in case the primary branch would unexpectedly break, correct?

I guess I cannot have both, i.e. if I want to have the lower "backup" branches there just in case, I need to capture them with the climbing line and forget about the friction saver (?). (The rope itself I can anyway protect from resin and other dirt with a rope protector directly on rope, if I wish to keep the rope neat and clean.)

 

[Jan_]

Ok. So if I manage to isolate the branch (can be difficult with a tree with lots of branches), at the same time I loose the backup of having a lower branch captured by the rope in case the primary branch would unexpectedly break, correct?

I guess I cannot have both, i.e. if I want to have the lower "backup" branches there just in case, I need to capture them with the climbing line and forget about the friction saver (?). (The rope itself I can anyway protect from resin and other dirt with a rope protector directly on rope, if I wish to keep the rope neat and clean.)

You can only have lower branches as a backup if you are using a base tie. I dont like the idea of capturing multiple branches in my canopy TIP, it should theoretically work, but it seems sketchy and unnecessary to me.

 

[Tuebor]

Ok. So if I manage to isolate the branch (can be difficult with a tree with lots of branches), at the same time I loose the backup of having a lower branch captured by the rope in case the primary branch would unexpectedly break, correct?

I guess I cannot have both, i.e. if I want to have the lower "backup" branches there just in case, I need to capture them with the climbing line and forget about the friction saver (?). (The rope itself I can anyway protect from resin and other dirt with a rope protector directly on rope, if I wish to keep the rope neat and clean.)

You'll have to isolate the limb to send up and install a ring and ring friction saver. Once it's installed, you can try to get the throw weight swinging on its way down and get it on the other side of a lower limb before you haul up your climbing line. A sleeve style cambium saver doesn't need the limb isolated to install and will still offer protection to the tree and rope. That said, if you feel the need to have a lower limb for backup, you should probably choose a stronger limb or reduce the load by not using the base anchor method.

 

[LordFarkwad]

I've never done this, myself, but can you put a finer point on what is potentially sketchy about it? It seems like there could be some strange loading (upwards on the bottom limb inside the cinch, for instance), and depending on the sweep of the branches, perhaps the increased chance of the bottom of the cinching loop sliding up towards the tip of an upward-sweeping limb (giving climber a little fall, depending on branch configuration).

Would DdRT with a sleeve-style cambium saver and a split tail be good here potentially, with the main selling-points being 'back-up' in case of PSP failure? No strange loading scenarios, 1x climber's weight at PSP, and the redundancy of being able to encompass multiple limbs in the loop, with the only downside being twice the amount of rope needing to be traversed (*Edit: AND having to lanyard in to go around limbs within the loop, versus basal-anchored SRT).

You can only have lower branches as a backup if you are using a base tie. I dont like the idea of capturing multiple branches in my canopy TIP, it should theoretically work, but it seems sketchy and unnecessary to me.

 

[Flying~Squirrel]

Are you asking how to install a cambium saver or which anchor method is best suited to your goal? I don't want to sound negative when I suggest that you have some tree climbing fundamentals to work out before you focus on adding tools and techniques. Knowing what to know is knowledge in itself.

 

[vanski]

Are you asking how to install a cambium saver or which anchor method is best suited to your goal? I don't want to sound negative when I suggest that you have some tree climbing fundamentals to work out before you focus on adding tools and techniques. Knowing what to know is knowledge in itself.

Actually neither one of those. The original question was to verify if there is any 'trick' that I'm not aware of, which would allow friction saver such as Treesbee to be installed from the ground without isolating the limb. My assumption was that it isn't possible and that was confirmed in the discussion.

The discussion about different anchor methods just popped up somehow, I guess when Tuebor asked which method I use (base anchor which works well for my purposes).

 

[Rob Stafari]

As stated above friction is negligible with SRT. Unless of course you have near all of a 60 M hank of tachyon(or any other bouncy rope) over a big oak tree and base tied. Then you start getting a grove even with SRT. Enough to be worried about is debatable. An easier solution is to buy a more static rope in that case.