Cabling
- Thread starter Mark Chisholm
- Start date
pic of plate up close, with nut. I originally thought i'd put two nuts backed up tight against each other when I use these rods. I ended up deciding to beat up the threads, achieves same goal. Plates were 1/4" or little more thick.
Yes, the tree will have to grow around this plate. (You negative people). But really, how much diameter is this 200-300yr old oak putting on anyway, not much. Besides, I would not have wanted to trust washers with this much weight at stake. So, either I do it secure with big plates, or the tree comes down.
So, there was three individual rods put through this oak in 3 different leads. All had the large plates like this.
Yes, the tree will have to grow around this plate. (You negative people). But really, how much diameter is this 200-300yr old oak putting on anyway, not much. Besides, I would not have wanted to trust washers with this much weight at stake. So, either I do it secure with big plates, or the tree comes down.
So, there was three individual rods put through this oak in 3 different leads. All had the large plates like this.
Attachments
Alright last one.
pic of the rod side. Nut backed up against almond eye. I also beat up the threads of the rod inside the almond eye.
Apparently I don't have a far away still picture of the overall tree. Sorry. I'll have to get one when I go back sometime. Most pics are video.
Anchors were spaced out nicely. One on the left, one in the middle, one on the right. Tree leans out over the "cliff".
Customer gave me the okay to come back any time to train climbers in this neat tree when I offered to take out several very large dead limbs and hangers. It's really more work than it's worth, but I end up doing extra for big trees I like. I did this job pretty cheap also; I usually do when it's something unique and I really want to get the job. Not smart maybe, cabling is a liability, why do it so cheap; shoot, I cabled(8cables) and trimmed a large Kentucky coffee for a church (for free) just to make sure it got done.
This oak is a nice tree. I'm glad to have been able to keep it around for years to come. We seccured it maybe a week before the first hurricane remnant came through. I think we had like 3 or 4 hurricane related storms come through after this cabling this summer. I checked on it recently and all looks great. Customer loves the job. Never has to worry about walking into cables. (two are high enough and the cable to the one in the concrete goes "through" the branches of a blue spruce before going into the ground).
If I had taken this tree out, it would have been one of the largest (price) job of my career. (That would have been interesting too, but I can't see getting rid of a nice tree.) Extremely limited access and odd location. Probably would have roughly been around $6000.
hope you enjoyed the pics, it took up my whole freakin' day. sorry about any bad spellling...
pic of the rod side. Nut backed up against almond eye. I also beat up the threads of the rod inside the almond eye.
Apparently I don't have a far away still picture of the overall tree. Sorry. I'll have to get one when I go back sometime. Most pics are video.
Anchors were spaced out nicely. One on the left, one in the middle, one on the right. Tree leans out over the "cliff".
Customer gave me the okay to come back any time to train climbers in this neat tree when I offered to take out several very large dead limbs and hangers. It's really more work than it's worth, but I end up doing extra for big trees I like. I did this job pretty cheap also; I usually do when it's something unique and I really want to get the job. Not smart maybe, cabling is a liability, why do it so cheap; shoot, I cabled(8cables) and trimmed a large Kentucky coffee for a church (for free) just to make sure it got done.
This oak is a nice tree. I'm glad to have been able to keep it around for years to come. We seccured it maybe a week before the first hurricane remnant came through. I think we had like 3 or 4 hurricane related storms come through after this cabling this summer. I checked on it recently and all looks great. Customer loves the job. Never has to worry about walking into cables. (two are high enough and the cable to the one in the concrete goes "through" the branches of a blue spruce before going into the ground).
If I had taken this tree out, it would have been one of the largest (price) job of my career. (That would have been interesting too, but I can't see getting rid of a nice tree.) Extremely limited access and odd location. Probably would have roughly been around $6000.
hope you enjoyed the pics, it took up my whole freakin' day. sorry about any bad spellling...
Attachments
Mark,
those new cable ends; how does the cable look after the install? Is it really slacked and saggy? I don't see how you get it straight looking. Unless you use a come-along to pull the two leads together first.
(I understand not to get a cable rigid in most situations, but wondering if it is too slacked with those installations).
That's why I've held off on ordering them.
My regular cabling (not massive stuff) we have down to a fast operation, about 1/2hr per cable.
your pic: http://www.treebuzz.com/forum/download.php?Number=15227
those new cable ends; how does the cable look after the install? Is it really slacked and saggy? I don't see how you get it straight looking. Unless you use a come-along to pull the two leads together first.
(I understand not to get a cable rigid in most situations, but wondering if it is too slacked with those installations).
That's why I've held off on ordering them.
My regular cabling (not massive stuff) we have down to a fast operation, about 1/2hr per cable.
your pic: http://www.treebuzz.com/forum/download.php?Number=15227
- Location
- S.E. Wisconsin
[ QUOTE ]
Okay point 2 :
Have you guys examined where old cables brake? Like 15-20yr old cables in trees?
I've seen it at one location mainly. It's in the dead end loop. I think that when a tree grows out over the lag/bolt and out over the thimble and part of the loop it freezes up the movement of the thimble. Now there is no movement and the strands get all the movement at the point where they meet the wood. Just like when you bend a coat hanger back and forth you eventually get it to brake.
Now, again, I've only seen this on 15-20 old weathered systems.
That's where I always see them brake, right where the loop goes into the wood.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've seen the same pattern, that's why I mentioned Cycles to failure with the system Mark used.
Okay point 2 :
Have you guys examined where old cables brake? Like 15-20yr old cables in trees?
I've seen it at one location mainly. It's in the dead end loop. I think that when a tree grows out over the lag/bolt and out over the thimble and part of the loop it freezes up the movement of the thimble. Now there is no movement and the strands get all the movement at the point where they meet the wood. Just like when you bend a coat hanger back and forth you eventually get it to brake.
Now, again, I've only seen this on 15-20 old weathered systems.
That's where I always see them brake, right where the loop goes into the wood.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've seen the same pattern, that's why I mentioned Cycles to failure with the system Mark used.
- Location
- S.E. Wisconsin
[ QUOTE ]
I've spent 3 hrs now looking up these pics, transferring them to disk on one computer and taking them to this computer. So I hope you like them.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, great pictures and discussion, thank you.
I'd like to see a drawing of your idea for a suspension system for steel cable.
You could go all out and add a shock absorber and a spring, but really it needs to be simple and cheap. If it costs too much, it will only get used for the very high end jobs. No chance for mass production.
I've spent 3 hrs now looking up these pics, transferring them to disk on one computer and taking them to this computer. So I hope you like them.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, great pictures and discussion, thank you.
I'd like to see a drawing of your idea for a suspension system for steel cable.
You could go all out and add a shock absorber and a spring, but really it needs to be simple and cheap. If it costs too much, it will only get used for the very high end jobs. No chance for mass production.
Your right, it needs to be REALLY cheap. My idea if fairly cheap, but not super cheap, so it may only be used on bigger projects.
I guess I can sketch it out and scan it, then post it on here. If we get a few rainy days I'll get to it.
Then someone else will probably try to patent it or something...... Oh well, you'll know who came up with it first. No, I doubt it's good enough to pattent.
No shock absorber or anything like that. Just all-thread, almond eye, pipe, heavy spring and washers or plates.
I'll use it on my own trees first. Also if it looks good, I'll install on two trees that I want to remove on my property. (I've got a lot to remove this winter, new place) I'll join two trees together with the cable and my spring system. I'll video tape the spring system up close as I fell another tree onto that tree being supported to really test the fu**er out. (i really don't cuss, just in an odd mood).
Ideas can seem good till ya actually build them, so, I'll see.
Yeah, I never thought of Mark's system being like grown over thimble eyes. That wasn't why I posted the remark about where old cables break. Can't believe I never thought of that. Hmmmmm, might not be a good idea to do it that way. Then again, how long does it take till a cable fails? I bet that hole closes up really fast, so that process gets started fast too.
I guess I can sketch it out and scan it, then post it on here. If we get a few rainy days I'll get to it.
Then someone else will probably try to patent it or something...... Oh well, you'll know who came up with it first. No, I doubt it's good enough to pattent.
No shock absorber or anything like that. Just all-thread, almond eye, pipe, heavy spring and washers or plates.
I'll use it on my own trees first. Also if it looks good, I'll install on two trees that I want to remove on my property. (I've got a lot to remove this winter, new place) I'll join two trees together with the cable and my spring system. I'll video tape the spring system up close as I fell another tree onto that tree being supported to really test the fu**er out. (i really don't cuss, just in an odd mood).
Ideas can seem good till ya actually build them, so, I'll see.
Yeah, I never thought of Mark's system being like grown over thimble eyes. That wasn't why I posted the remark about where old cables break. Can't believe I never thought of that. Hmmmmm, might not be a good idea to do it that way. Then again, how long does it take till a cable fails? I bet that hole closes up really fast, so that process gets started fast too.
- Location
- Bucks Co. P.A.
Just a couple of questions that popped up when I looked at these pics.
The hole for the rod looks a little loose for the rod?? The rod from those angles in that pic looks like it's curved...not straight in line with cable. Last, why is the almond eye so far from base of rod. That looks like a weak cable install to me. Just doesn't look right with that rod.
The price of cabling can get a little pricey depending on job, but in this case, or most cases when your trying to save that "beautiful" tree, a couple hundred or whatever seems fair compared to removing said tree. Even removing said limb or leader if it fails because a cable option was "too expensive" would be more expensive than the cable itself. Look at your options and due the math.
A tree that mature, old, and in good health, deserves a better deal than that rod. I think it will do more damage to that tree in the long run. Of course I could be wrong and I hope I am, but that could have been more thought out. If you charged more I bet you would have came up with a better plan. This is Treework not Freework.
Later
The hole for the rod looks a little loose for the rod?? The rod from those angles in that pic looks like it's curved...not straight in line with cable. Last, why is the almond eye so far from base of rod. That looks like a weak cable install to me. Just doesn't look right with that rod.
The price of cabling can get a little pricey depending on job, but in this case, or most cases when your trying to save that "beautiful" tree, a couple hundred or whatever seems fair compared to removing said tree. Even removing said limb or leader if it fails because a cable option was "too expensive" would be more expensive than the cable itself. Look at your options and due the math.
A tree that mature, old, and in good health, deserves a better deal than that rod. I think it will do more damage to that tree in the long run. Of course I could be wrong and I hope I am, but that could have been more thought out. If you charged more I bet you would have came up with a better plan. This is Treework not Freework.
Later
- Location
- Home of the New Jersey Devils
I may be off base on this particular circumstance, but in general, I remember Dr. Smiley talking about how he believes that a rod alone is better than cables alone in a co-dom situation. Anyone else have a thought on that?
- Location
- Home of the New Jersey Devils
Makes sense to me, but they did some pull tests at the lab and had great findings with rods?
Dear Sawdic,
First of all, with the choice of words you used, you couldn't have wanted a professional nice response from me.
For instance: "That looks like a weak cable install to me." "that could have been more thought out." "A tree that mature, old, and in good health, deserves a better deal than that rod."
I will answer your points non-the-less:
1."The hole for the rod looks a little loose for the rod??" Yes it sure did look like that in that picture. When I drew the yellow dotted line, I was suprized it didn't seem to line up. It has to be something with the picture. I used 3/4" rod and the holes were drilled with 3/4" bit. I have to blow out all the sawdust or it's a real bastard to get the rod through. The holes were straight and tight. I have to use a sledge hammer still to get them through. Also some of the rods and cables weren't PERFECTLY in line. Installing 75 foot length "guide wire" and drilling through such a large diameter isn't as easily to get lined up.
2."Last, why is the almond eye so far from base of rod?" I think you mean, why isn't the almond eye closer to the limb?
Yes, may have been prettier that way. Does this really matter? All I can see is that as the tree grows it won't likely have to grow out over the almond eye, and loop. Again, on such a lengthy cable install, I wanted to have plenty of rod length to take out the slack.
"A tree that mature, old, and in good health, deserves a better deal than that rod. I think it will do more damage to that tree in the long run."
What is so freakin bad about a rod sawdic? Did your daddy use to shove a rod up your a** when you were a little boy when he use to molest you?
Big deal, that rod is affecting 3/4 inch of cambium on each side of that massive diameter. Big freakin' deal. The tree was solid through, no discolored shaving came out what so ever. I have been installing hardware in trees for quite a while and I've never seen one rot around the hardware. NEVER. Can it happen?, sure, especially if you drill through rot anywhere. I haven't come across it on other peoples very old systems either.
Now, what I didn't like that much, was using the plates. That is a large obstacle to grow around/over. But, I didn't want to trust washers and a nut. They may very well have been plenty. I did figure that tree is growing in diameter really slow, so I felt a little better about that.
"I think it will do more damage to that tree in the long run."
Yeah, those rods are going to do more damage than that tree falling over and taking out the piere and deck.
Steel rod sawdic, steel rod, steel rod, steel rod! /forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
"I could be wrong and I hope I am"
You are, so be happy.
"but that could have been more thought out. "
Wow, next time I'll call you for advice.
First of all, with the choice of words you used, you couldn't have wanted a professional nice response from me.
For instance: "That looks like a weak cable install to me." "that could have been more thought out." "A tree that mature, old, and in good health, deserves a better deal than that rod."
I will answer your points non-the-less:
1."The hole for the rod looks a little loose for the rod??" Yes it sure did look like that in that picture. When I drew the yellow dotted line, I was suprized it didn't seem to line up. It has to be something with the picture. I used 3/4" rod and the holes were drilled with 3/4" bit. I have to blow out all the sawdust or it's a real bastard to get the rod through. The holes were straight and tight. I have to use a sledge hammer still to get them through. Also some of the rods and cables weren't PERFECTLY in line. Installing 75 foot length "guide wire" and drilling through such a large diameter isn't as easily to get lined up.
2."Last, why is the almond eye so far from base of rod?" I think you mean, why isn't the almond eye closer to the limb?
Yes, may have been prettier that way. Does this really matter? All I can see is that as the tree grows it won't likely have to grow out over the almond eye, and loop. Again, on such a lengthy cable install, I wanted to have plenty of rod length to take out the slack.
"A tree that mature, old, and in good health, deserves a better deal than that rod. I think it will do more damage to that tree in the long run."
What is so freakin bad about a rod sawdic? Did your daddy use to shove a rod up your a** when you were a little boy when he use to molest you?
Big deal, that rod is affecting 3/4 inch of cambium on each side of that massive diameter. Big freakin' deal. The tree was solid through, no discolored shaving came out what so ever. I have been installing hardware in trees for quite a while and I've never seen one rot around the hardware. NEVER. Can it happen?, sure, especially if you drill through rot anywhere. I haven't come across it on other peoples very old systems either.
Now, what I didn't like that much, was using the plates. That is a large obstacle to grow around/over. But, I didn't want to trust washers and a nut. They may very well have been plenty. I did figure that tree is growing in diameter really slow, so I felt a little better about that.
"I think it will do more damage to that tree in the long run."
Yeah, those rods are going to do more damage than that tree falling over and taking out the piere and deck.
Steel rod sawdic, steel rod, steel rod, steel rod! /forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
"I could be wrong and I hope I am"
You are, so be happy.
"but that could have been more thought out. "
Wow, next time I'll call you for advice.
Norm_Hall
New member
- Location
- Wauconda, (Chicago),IL,USA
Mark, I agree with TK on the cable vs. rod. I also think it would greatly depend on the species we are trying to protect. Some trees might react better to a rod than cable? It would be interesting to see the info on Dr. Smileys project.
Xman, In the ANSI A300(Part 3)-2000, 37.6 states "Steel hardware shall be corrosion resistant." The threaded rod in the pics does not look corrosion resistant. 38.9 states "Heavy duty or heat-treated heavy duty round washers shall be installed between the nut(s) and the wood." Also, think about this; The threaded rod with the Amon eye will pivot at the exit point. When the tree swings back & forth, the rod will bend back & forth, weakening it. If the treaded rod is installed with the Amon eye next to the trunk or limb, the thimble pivots on the Amon eye instead.
We understand that you are trying to save this awesome tree and the huge undertaking.
Xman, In the ANSI A300(Part 3)-2000, 37.6 states "Steel hardware shall be corrosion resistant." The threaded rod in the pics does not look corrosion resistant. 38.9 states "Heavy duty or heat-treated heavy duty round washers shall be installed between the nut(s) and the wood." Also, think about this; The threaded rod with the Amon eye will pivot at the exit point. When the tree swings back & forth, the rod will bend back & forth, weakening it. If the treaded rod is installed with the Amon eye next to the trunk or limb, the thimble pivots on the Amon eye instead.
We understand that you are trying to save this awesome tree and the huge undertaking.
- Location
- Coeur d'Alene
Thanks for sharing Xman. Good points Norm. Any concerns when using Rigguy that callous tissue may not develop around the holes and cable due to cable movement?
"The threaded rod with the Amon eye will pivot at the exit point. When the tree swings back & forth, the rod will bend back & forth, weakening it. If the treaded rod is installed with the Amon eye next to the trunk or limb, the thimble pivots on the Amon eye instead."
Excellent point! That came across my mind also. The good thing is, that tree is so massive is doesn't seem to move at all. Really, not at all.
Your right about the steel rod too. Where can you buy galvanized threaded rod that size? I would think it would take about 90-100 years to rust that thick of a rod to failure, but....... it would be nice to be galvanized or stainless (ouch$$$).
Amon eye: is it Almond eye or Amon eye. I've heard people say "amon" but the company I buy them from (a catalog) that lists them as ALMOND EYES. So I've been saying Almond lately.
thanks for the professional input Norm.
Excellent point! That came across my mind also. The good thing is, that tree is so massive is doesn't seem to move at all. Really, not at all.
Your right about the steel rod too. Where can you buy galvanized threaded rod that size? I would think it would take about 90-100 years to rust that thick of a rod to failure, but....... it would be nice to be galvanized or stainless (ouch$$$).
Amon eye: is it Almond eye or Amon eye. I've heard people say "amon" but the company I buy them from (a catalog) that lists them as ALMOND EYES. So I've been saying Almond lately.
thanks for the professional input Norm.
- Location
- Bucks Co. P.A.
I figured you were the sensitive type. Just re-read you last post. 2 things you "thought" about but didn't do. Keep posting. You'll find your own answers. I won't have to pick it apart. Keep coming back, it works if you work it.
The point is to have it straight. Especially on "massive" wood. Tiny movements with big things compounds.....oh nevermind. Like I said, more thought, more money.
Last but not least. The whole daddy thing is crap. Again, You need to think before you do. I lost my dad when I was 5. Used to get into alot of fights from that. But that was in grade school. Learn a lesson son, keep your personal problems to yourself. Next time save the drama for your mama cause you daddy ain't listenen.
PUNK /forum/images/graemlins/wildmonkey.gif
The point is to have it straight. Especially on "massive" wood. Tiny movements with big things compounds.....oh nevermind. Like I said, more thought, more money.
Last but not least. The whole daddy thing is crap. Again, You need to think before you do. I lost my dad when I was 5. Used to get into alot of fights from that. But that was in grade school. Learn a lesson son, keep your personal problems to yourself. Next time save the drama for your mama cause you daddy ain't listenen.
PUNK /forum/images/graemlins/wildmonkey.gif
x-man. Everyone on this post and for the most part on this board are professional well respected people in the industry. Here we all learn from each other and we all have our own opinion. I do not agree with everything every one else does, but I do listen and learn and often voice my own opinion on what someone else does but I would never insult someone for thier opinion. You seem to be looking for some kind of gratification for your spectacular cabling/guying job yet you can not handle a little critisizom. Everytime someone questions my actions I often listen especially around here. Lets all try to get along.
We'll all get along just fine.
I just didn't like sawdust's choice of words. He could point out stuff all he wants, I just didn't like the tone. So I tried to say something that he may not like, and had a little fun with it too.
"gratification for your spectacular cabling/guying job".
Gratification? Yeah, I guess there's always some of that in any picture we might post. Spectacular, no, but I thought it was a unique situation and thought it would be cool to share.
Look, probably taught some of the readers about using ALL rust resistant materials to satisfy ANSI. And it's good to get your attachment point close to the wood and maybe some hadn't thought about digging and pouring a concrete anchor......
And sawdust. Yeah, sorry your dad died but you know I don't know you from Jack and you didn't have to try to get...... I'll stop too.
It very easy to say too much when you are just typing words. (for me anyway) cause you don't get any feedback during your rant. And it's hard to know the true tone of what people wrote that you are mearly reading.
Oh, sawdust, I did like your last line about crying to yo mama cause daddy ain't listing or something like that. /forum/images/graemlins/applaudit.gif
later,
I just didn't like sawdust's choice of words. He could point out stuff all he wants, I just didn't like the tone. So I tried to say something that he may not like, and had a little fun with it too.
"gratification for your spectacular cabling/guying job".
Gratification? Yeah, I guess there's always some of that in any picture we might post. Spectacular, no, but I thought it was a unique situation and thought it would be cool to share.
Look, probably taught some of the readers about using ALL rust resistant materials to satisfy ANSI. And it's good to get your attachment point close to the wood and maybe some hadn't thought about digging and pouring a concrete anchor......
And sawdust. Yeah, sorry your dad died but you know I don't know you from Jack and you didn't have to try to get...... I'll stop too.
It very easy to say too much when you are just typing words. (for me anyway) cause you don't get any feedback during your rant. And it's hard to know the true tone of what people wrote that you are mearly reading.
Oh, sawdust, I did like your last line about crying to yo mama cause daddy ain't listing or something like that. /forum/images/graemlins/applaudit.gif
later,
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