At what point do you simply say, "No Thank You."

rfwoodvt

rfwoodvt

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At what point do you simply say, \"No Thank You.\"

This is more of a question to spark discussion, not related to any particular job I've had recently. Just thought I'd toss it out there.

We've all been there...asked to bid on a job that you really don't want to do, or a job that once you start talking with the customer they become more and more pushy.

We've all taken such jobs and ended up regretting them or at least just muddling through until it was done.

So, here's the question. At what point, what are the triggers, that tell you it is time to withdraw your proposal?

And then do you follow through and withdraw?
 
Re: At what point do you simply say, \"No Thank You.\"

I almost always walk away from a job where the customer is a lawyer and tells you they are a lawyer. I work for a few people that I know are lawyers, but they never bring it up. When you are giving a bid to a lawyer, and tell them that they can legally prune a tree coming across the fenceline, and they tell you not to tell them what is legal, because they are a lawyer, it is a good time to walk away.
 
Re: At what point do you simply say, \"No Thank You.\"

I pass along the names of friendly competitors when it's a job that's out of my scope... I'm a small job guy and I have to hire my debris handling. When the coordination looks like more trouble than it's worth, I bail.

Sometimes, rather than bailing, I quote an astronomically high price believing I won't get the job... I get a surprisingly high percentage of those jobs. So at least the financial benefit is good when I have to work out of my scope.
 
Re: At what point do you simply say, \"No Thank You.\"

i agree what blinky said and also the client who says i dont care just trim it and give me a cheap price,well ur telling me u dont care about tree health(and i usually can teach em a thing or 2 and ill just do it right)and ur also telling me ur cheap RED FLAGS time too call a cheap hacker and know it all people who tell u how too do the job not cool
 
Re: At what point do you simply say, \"No Thank You.\"

We created a little joke about who we should NOT work for. Teachers, Preachers, RCMP, Doctors and Lawyers!

Thinking back, NOT all in this group were BAD to work for, BUT strangely enough, a large portion of them had idiosyncrasies.

Teachers tend to be know-it-alls
Preachers tend NOT to have any money
RCMP are lookin' for their NEXT moonlighting job (need an education)
Doctors appear to always be pre-occupied
Lawyers are always playing an angle

The best people to work for are the middle class folks that appreciate what they have, and how to keep or improve it! IMO
 
Re: At what point do you simply say, \"No Thank You.\"

[ QUOTE ]
...The best people to work for are the middle class folks that appreciate what they have...

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll second that.

I stereo-type people all of the time. The times I feel like I have some one "sized up" is when I'm wrong. The times when I give some one the benefit of the doubt (even though I've heard all sorts of red flags indicating that they may be cheap wads), is where I'm wrong.

This summer I responded to a call in a very low income trailer park area (even though I didn't want to). I was the first person she called and I responded. Botttom line is that I bid a dead cottonwood for less than the amount she paid last year for a heavy Crown Clean. And I didn't lower my rate either. I did fair and honest work.

She said nobody but one company responded to her last year. They took out sizeable dead wood and left her with a dead tree this year. (The company is in every state. I could give all of you 2 guesses and I'm sure you'd guess who it was. And, I'm very surprised that they actually responded).

Well, they responded alright. Since nobody else would give this lady the benefit of the doubt she was price gouged. The crown clean for this job was $1700 dollars. I charged her $1,100 dollars for the removal. It was 7.5 hours for myself and my employee. (We tried to get a crane in there, but we cracked concrete with the out riggers. I didn't want to push it either. I had the crane company leave. Therefore we did it old school).
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She was quoted $5,000 dollars (excluding the additional cost of the crane. That would have been extra, she was told).
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Re: At what point do you simply say, \"No Thank You.\"

It is very easy to refuse work if they are located far away. I can simply let them know that I don't drive that far.

Rich, middle class, or poor; if the person's first words are, "Do you give free estimates?" It is a red flag!

I did a test this year. With about 12 customers I responded with, "I charge $20 dollars, but that will be credited to the invoice if you choose to do business with me." I only had one person that passed.
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(With that story told, I normally don't charge for bids). But, for those people who accepted to get a bid from me and didn't schedule work... Well, I made $20 per bid. I didn't mind that at all.
 
Re: At what point do you simply say, \"No Thank You.\"

Treedem,

I hear you on your categories! I've actually fared well with most all of those groups though my biggest "red flag" categories are the engineers or "closet lawyers"

The engineers just think differently than I do and it is always a pain in the butt to communicate with them.

But the closet lawyers, they are the ones that really send the willies up my spine.

Given enough time though, they usually slip up and tell me about how bad their neighbors are and how they have (or plan to) exact justice. I even had one guy, who also happened to be an engineer, regale me on how bad a job his septic contractor was doing and how he planned on stiffing the contractor because of lousy work, yada, yada, yada.

Go figure, I had no sooner finished my job for him and the guy started giving me crap about how I didn't do the work as specified and he refused to pay...

I have learned to listen very carefully now and consider everything that is said, and often unsaid.

I'm also trusting my gut much more these days, if the old alimentary system say "keep away" I am more inclined to back off, take a closer look, and withdraw the proposal.

Doesn't happen often, but often enough, and when I do I don't regret the decision to bail.

But the number one customer that makes me bail is the one who tries to tell me how to do my work and demands that I take certain risks but still wants me responsible for damages.

Kinda like the bozo who finishes telling me about some BS frivolous lawsuit they recently filed and as we discuss the job tells me he wants to save money and sees no reason we can't "just dump the tree across the driveway. It shouldn't cause any problems."

Like yeah, right, how big is STUPID tattooed on my forehead?....NEXT!
 
Re: At what point do you simply say, \"No Thank You.\"

I shouldn't stereotype, but the more life lessons one learns...... I return all calls, and I listen carefully. There is NO substitue for actually meeting some of the iffy ones. Learning to read body language can save a LOT of grief.

I have been used a few times. Mostly by the client wanting add-ons. Another phrase that come to mind is, " I was born at NIGHT, BUT it WASN'T LAST NIGHT"!
 
Re: At what point do you simply say, \"No Thank You

charging for estimates has saved me so much time its ridiculous.
 
Re: At what point do you simply say, \"No Thank You

That's interesting. I've been wasting so much time lately giving estimates, totally fair bids too. My estimate folder is busting at the seems.

I think I'm going to try that, but how do you get them to actually pay you the charge? You trade the bid for the dollar?

I can see giving someone the estimate, then them saying why should I pay you your fee now, sucker!
 
Re: At what point do you simply say, \"No Thank You

We've been charging for Q&A site visits but haven't made the transition to estimates...yet.

How to you approach the process with your customers Jeff?
 
Re: At what point do you simply say, \"No Thank You

I charge for walk arounds but not estimates. I don't follow up every call, I kind of screen them on the phone and if I get a bad feeling I just tell'em I'm too busy.
 
Re: At what point do you simply say, \"No Thank You

[ QUOTE ]
That's interesting. I've been wasting so much time lately giving estimates, totally fair bids too. My estimate folder is busting at the seems.

I think I'm going to try that, but how do you get them to actually pay you the charge? You trade the bid for the dollar?

I can see giving someone the estimate, then them saying why should I pay you your fee now, sucker!

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think that you will find someone willing to have you come out for a fee-for-estimate service, then back away after receiving your bid. If it happens, be happy, you wouldn't want to work for that person anyhow. Seems like it would be a huge PITA indicator.

I think that if you are busting at the seams, hopefully you are fully scheduled (as much as you'd reasonably like), and could afford to "lose" the opportunity to bid a job if they bawk at $20 (a la Jamin). You don't have to keep the policy if it isn't working. Around here, with the logger inundated nature of the PNW, and the state of WA being broke and people losing a lot of jobs in the capital (Olympia), I don't think that I could get away with it for bids, but I definitely do charge for an Arborist Consultation/ Evaluation.
 
Re: At what point do you simply say, \"No Thank You

People that screen their calls all the time are a warning sign. If they are in a poorer neighborhood and are screening, its more likely to avoid creditors than just for privacy. Of course there are a lot of people avoiding creditors in all socio-economic circles, just speaking probabilities here.
 
Re: At what point do you simply say, \"No Thank You

You must trust your gut.It cannot always be right but what else do you have? I find you can always gracefully back out or not work for certain folks.
Example,Mr jones wants tree severly topped ! I say,"Mr jones we do not do this type of work for these reasons"(list reasons here).THen say " I will gladly price out the work to do it the proper way." then support with good pamphlets etc.Then i tell them,"if you would still like it topped then maybe us working together is not a good fit.there are plenty of companies that will top and they may work out better for your job.....and gracefully back off! More than once i have had this tact land me the job.
 
Re: At what point do you simply say, \"No Thank You

Hello all. I think it's interesting that some folks charge for an estimate. I've never heard of anyone charging to give an estimate in my area. Giving free estimates is just part of doing business. Giving advice or instructions on the other hand is different.

I don't know if I would pay for an estimate. I'm not cheap by any means, but I'm not rolling in cash either. I'm looking for the best quality job at a fair price that I can afford, not the cheapest price. I use the estimate process like you do, to meet you and size you up, not just to hear how you will help me in return for me paying you for it.

What if I don't like you for some reason? I get a bad feeling in my gut, or our personalities just don't click? Will you give me back the estimate fee? What if your truck leaked oil on my driveway or you're an hour late? Can I charge you a fee back and call it even? What if I've been burned in the past (like the lady that Jamin mentioned) and now I'm a bit cautious?

I guess what I'm getting at is that not all customers are a-holes out to waste your time. Sometimes we just don't know what something will cost ( or if we can afford it )or if the person we are hiring is the right one for the job. Many times the only way to find out is to meet in person and get an estimate. We all know that when we talk to someone face to face, we get a feeling about them. Sometimes the personalities click, some times they don't. Sometimes you get a good feeling, sometimes a bad one. I don't think I should have to pay to find that out.

Not trying to ruffle any feathers, just offering up a view point from the other side.

-BarnHouse
 
Re: At what point do you simply say, \"No Thank You

BarnHouse-

I hear where you are coming from.

In one way or another, the customer has to pay for the estimate. Either that, or the owner loses money certainly to meet with you.

If you figure the costs to have someone drive, say, 5 miles in a rig, it will come out to much more than $20. That being said, if someone offers to perform a bid for $20, then you and the business are both paying to size one another up. In the end the cost in an effective business will end up passed along to the customer.

As a business owner who is both concerned about providing quality services and the bottom line, this can be a way to lose less money on potential jobs, and screen out some people for more lucrative leads.

People will be getting information that can be used by another service provider. For example, the homeowner will want to know how you will remove a tree. You explain how you will protect the street/driveway from a falling section, or their rosebushes, etc. They can then hire the low-bid operation and say that they will go with their low bid if they do x,y,and z to protect their road/ driveway and rosebushes.

Its unfortunately impossible to go and just do a bid for a "Removal" (where the end result is more "apples" to "apples" than tree care) and at the same time feel out the customer.

Its an imperfect system where some people will secretly spend the time of 30 companies to get the lowest price, and some companies will take some customers for all they can get. Then, most everyone else fits in the middle.

Seems to me that a $20 estimate is meeting in the middle on both the customer and companies ends. I'm not saying it will work or not, just both people giving something to see if a business deal can be arranged.

How do you think about other industries that charge just to have someone show up (service call fee) like some trades? If I want to meet with a small business lawyer to see if I want to use his/her services, I'd be paying around $250/hour from what a lawyer customer tells me--about $1000 to incorporate.
 
Re: At what point do you simply say, \"No Thank You

southsound -

You make some very good points also and I can definately see where you are coming from.

I'm not saying that charging for estimates is right or wrong, it just seems unusual to me because it isn't something that's commonly done in my area.

In the end, you have to do what works best to run your business and still provide your customers with a quality service.

As far as lawyers go, I have some mixed feelings on that one which I won't get into!
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-BarnHouse
 
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