Article: PA inmates learn arborist work

TCIA Magazine had a similar article about two years ago; I spoke with Shea Zwerver a month or two ago and may be going up this fall as a course instructor when they run the next round of classes. I think this is a great idea, a win for the guys who need a fresh start and a win for tree services who need a new source for workers.
 
WA State Dept Of Natural Resources uses prison labor/ trains for pre-commercial (slash through) thinning. They have a prison-treeworker training program.

I know that an employee who applies with DNR experience tells me that I don't want to hire them. Wish it was different.
Maybe if I was an office boss who would not have to deal with convicts day in, day out.

Getting into prison takes effort, generally. Often people are in prison not for ALL the crimes they've committed. Drug addicts ('non-violent offenders') have done lots of things they are not arrested for.

I know finding anyone worthwhile as an employee is a stretch, and would love someone to prove me wrong, but ex-cons, sounds great in an idealized, 'they've been rehabilitated' pipe dream.
 
Serf Life said:
That prison sounds sweet too, next time...
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Used to live near there. Rockview State Prison used to be home of the last electric chair* in Penna (it's still the only prison in PA where they do executions). It's a pretty stark/imposing/forbidding place, up high in the mountains in the middle of a huge tract of land owned by the Commonwealth of PA. They used to do a lot of timbering on that land, I believe. I remember seeing BIG piles of rough-cut lumber there...

You want to see this place with a dense mountain fog rolling over it ... spooky. Don't think I've ever seen a living soul on the grounds. (It's along a highway, I've driven past it many times.)

rockview.bmp


* I'll never forget a newspaper article I once read about the prison, where they showed a pic of the electric chair in the death house. On the wall behind the electric chair hung a black telephone. The caption printed under the picture said the phone was there in case a governor ever issued a stay of execution at the last minute as the guest was being strapped into the chair, and then cheerfully added, "The telephone has never rung." :hueco: :buitre:
 
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southsoundtree said:
WA State Dept Of Natural Resources uses prison labor/ trains for pre-commercial (slash through) thinning. They have a prison-treeworker training program.

I know that an employee who applies with DNR experience tells me that I don't want to hire them. Wish it was different.
Maybe if I was an office boss who would not have to deal with convicts day in, day out.

Getting into prison takes effort, generally. Often people are in prison not for ALL the crimes they've committed. Drug addicts ('non-violent offenders') have done lots of things they are not arrested for.

I know finding anyone worthwhile as an employee is a stretch, and would love someone to prove me wrong, but ex-cons, sounds great in an idealized, 'they've been rehabilitated' pipe dream.
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Lol there's nobody that can work with u I'm starting to think
 
Plenty, only competent people, though, or those who don't think they are mind-readers or can do whatever they think they should.


I bet we would get long fine, as you seem to have been around the block a bunch.


I got ruined, working with a highly-experienced (40 years in BIG timber, I think his biggest fell was 330', at Rockport State Park, onto gravel beds on asphalt), competent person doing really dangerous tree work for over two years (springboards, Silvey dual ram jacks, skidder, banging over huge and rotten trees to get down amongst huge green trees), and there were the incidences where employees have nearly killed me or blinded me or hurt me, or I've had to hold their way too hands so they don't hurt themselves or anyone else.


Most residential work is straight-forward, safe, and easy, IMO, just big or small elephants. Sure, there is tons of stuff to learn, but mostly employees' equivalent (especially their scope of work, not the climber's/ feller's) is like building a garage, not design/ build the TaJ Mahal.


Seems to me, the hardest part is dealing with employees who know better than me, and can read my mind, even though they mostly pick up sticks, feed a stick-eater machine, run a rake, drive a pick-up and trailer. I self-lower most stuff, as it's easier and safer.

Once I had a plan (where I did all the planning, decision-making, and laid down full-drop-zone sized pieces, repeatedly) where one groundie was to catch/ hold the tip-tied log, allowing it to swing into free space, but little did I know that groundie #2, fresh back from taking a leak or whatever he was doing behind the shed, snuck in from behind, grabbing a rope, and swinging the log into me (far from help, up a backyard oak), because 'he wanted to help'.

Do you let guys like that stay around?




How many ex-cons do you have working for you?
How many ex-cons would you want knowing the security of 10s of thousands of dollars of equipment?

With how many high-end clients would you be honest with about your source of employees? . I know the people with the waterfront house don't want tweeky-mctweek or brain-burned used-to-be tweeky-mctweek at their property.

I have to do a little land clearing job for clients. Their 20 year-old, 20x30 shop is not up to par. 52' x 52' should hold their mini-x, tractor, splitter/ root-grapple/ and other implements, Gator, etc, etc, etc, etc.). People who are spending $100-200k a year on improvements/ renovations on their 10 year old house, and 20 year old property (used to be just forest), DO NOT WANT CONVICTS!



I'd start losing customers fast. Would you hire a company to come to, into your home who is an ex-con?






Once burned, twice shy.

How many times have people nearly killed or blinded you or crushed you, and then you have gone on to be willing to work with people like that?
 
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southsoundtree said:
Plenty, just competent people.

I bet we would get long fine, as you seem to have been around the block a bunch.

I got ruined, working with a highly experienced, competent person doing really dangerous tree work for over two years (springboard, Silvey dual ram jacks, skidder, huge and rotten trees to get down amongst huge green trees), and there were the incidences where employees have nearly killed me or blinded me or hurt me, or I've had to hold their hands so they don't hurt themselves or anyone else.

Once burned, twice shy.

How many times have people nearly killed or blinded you or crushed you, and then you have gone on to be willing to work with people like that?
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I gotya bud, just seems u mention it a lot... I totally agree with you
 
I wish I could hire a solid employee, who came to work, worked safely, learned a bunch, got a lot done, and went home with the dollars/ compensation they requested.

Most people don't want to work outdoors, and fewer want to work outdoors doing trees, and even less where there is 50" of rain a year. Cold, winter rain (usually 40's, not that cold, 33 and rain sucks).

Like when I was with a group of rock climbers at the Grand Tetons, and it was a bit drippy. We didn't know if we were going to climb ('soft' desert climbers). Two Outward Bound guides jumped right up ahead of us, saying that it was a great day of Cascade weather for climbing, only a little bit of dripping.


Almost everyone here does the chunk it down in little pieces, and cut it all into little pieces method, so skills are generally poor for groundies--- cut one chunk into three rounds, cut up a 20' spar in to 14 rounds, rake and chip.
 
southsoundtree said:
I wish I could hire a solid employee, who came to work, worked safely, learned a bunch, got a lot done, and went home with the dollars/ compensation they requested.

Most people don't want to work outdoors, and fewer want to work outdoors doing trees, and even less where there is 50" of rain a year. Cold, winter rain (usually 40's, not that cold, 33 and rain sucks).

Like when I was with a group of rock climbers at the Grand Tetons, and it was a bit drippy. We didn't know if we were going to climb ('soft' desert climbers). Two Outward Bound guides jumped right up ahead of us, saying that it was a great day of Cascade weather for climbing, only a little bit of dripping.


Almost everyone here does the chunk it down in little pieces, and cut it all into little pieces method, so skills are generally poor for groundies--- cut one chunk into three rounds, cut up a 20' spar in to 14 rounds, rake and chip.
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Yea u guys got some rough weather to consider over there. Gotta be much harder than other places to get people "into" tree work if they don't love it already.
 
Hired someone who seems trainable and put together, as a part-timer. A federally certified sawyer trained for AmeriCorps. She says she knows how to, limb, buck, and 'walk a tree down' that's hung up, but hasn't been trained to fell.

Walking one down is a little sorta like bringing down a large piece, hanging on a rope...don't just cut it up as high as you can reach with the saw over your head.

Maybe she will bring some finesse and multi-tasking organization, over Redbull and cigarettes. She's a lifeguard and college student, so some safety-awareness/ training, and some brains/ desire to learn.

Hope she's quick to catch on, as she says she looks at lots of things that she thinks are common sense, that pass others by. Drives a manual, which is harder and harder to find, and I have two manuals, two automatics.
 
I had a client request me from a somewhat distant area for clearing and pruning their property which was mostly away from where their house was positioned. At the time all helpers I knew had just moved away. But there was a well recognised rehab with plenty of help. I was honest and said what situation was, and I could vouch for any help I obtained there which I would have needed to do this job.

Instantly rejected. People around here already wary of contractors that come to their properties, much less anyone recognised as having past issues.

Good experiment and as outside area not much chance of gossip damaging reputation of who I have working for me. Totally understand homeowners desire for security too.
 
Imagine a painting company using 'day labor' from the big house. Imagine that this day labor is left in various houses while the owner does sales. This was happening in lower Delaware 30 years ago and hit the news. Scary.
 
Going to a clients bathroom without being escorted the whole time by a client exposes even innocent workers with the risk of accusation by a client. Sometimes an accusation can be placed by a client trying to conceal another matter against an innocent worker. Most crews around here won't dare go inside a clients house - unless we are taking a tree through an apartment and no accusation against anything missing is accepted written in the quote (clients responsibility to make sure nothing expensive left around) - due to historical examples of crew members from other services being accused of theft. Easier just not to enter a clients house at all - take a dump in the truck....

Throw in someone with a history and you could be open to being sued. Many employers around here now ask for a police check before hiring for these and other reasons.

Commercial properties, doesnt really matter unless a secure location and everyone onsite needs vetting.
 
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I would be all for it if the person seemed a good fit.
As for clients asking where my employees came from, I would politely tell them that it is none of their business as the job contract is between them and myself and my company, my company is responsible for my employees conduct.
If that didn’t satisfy them I would tell them to find another contractor
 
Scheffa said:
I would be all for it if the person seemed a good fit.
As for clients asking where my employees came from, I would politely tell them that it is none of their business as the job contract is between them and myself and my company, my company is responsible for my employees conduct.
If that didn’t satisfy them I would tell them to find another contractor
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Agreed, but I would have to go through the effort to ensure I was getting what is advertised, for my benefit and client, and reputation. But that goes for regular employees anyway re criminal tendencies and integrity, even if to ensure saws don't go missing one day...

If a client asked re issue I would replace them for the duration of the job as an integrity thing however wouldn't advertise the fact or let them know what was happening.

The issue becomes a little more pressing if in advertising my business I was also advertising doing police checks - which many businesses now do here, and thus if an incident happened and it were discovered you placed ex-cons on team without advising client.
 
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