Argus Picus or other Sonic Tomography Gear

rfwoodvt

rfwoodvt

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Just looking for information and any experience folks have with the PICUS or other tomography gear.

I'm getting close to setting a budget and marketing plan to get one and put it to use.

Anyone got one? What are the good and the bad? Any lessons you learned that I should know before heading that direction?

When the time comes to pull the trigger I'll probably start by looking for used components. If you have any leads on that I'd appreciate hearing about them as well.
 
Well, this didn't get any traction... What's up with tomographs? Top brands, capabilities, etc. Can they function at ground level and below? I've got a 10" opening at the base of a Magnolia grandiflora that I'd love to plug one up to. How much do they bill at? Anyone in North Florida have one?

@cerviarborist
 
colb said:
Well, this didn't get any traction... What's up with tomographs? Top brands, capabilities, etc. Can they function at ground level and below? I've got a 10" opening at the base of a Magnolia grandiflora that I'd love to plug one up to. How much do they bill at? Anyone in North Florida have one?

@cerviarborist
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"Dammit Jim, I'm an arborist, not a sonogram technician!"
 
PICUS tomograph with calipers is in the range of $25 000 I believe. Rinntech Arbotom is in the range of $15 000.

There is a strong belief in North America that all you need is a mallet and you can assess decay. This attitude has lead to very limited use of advanced risk assessment tools. I believe that you will find the number of PICUS is a dozen or maybe two and Arbotom a handful.
 
If I needed services here in Florida, I'd call Sebastian Koerber of German Tree Solutions out of Miami. He's a BCMA, and TRAQ Qualified, and has all the above and below ground tomography gear, as well as resistograph and pull test equipment. He's co-presented with Frank Rinn for a few Florida Chapter functions. I couldn't begin to tell you what he charges for a site visit though. So there.:baaa:
 
So I wonder how many TRAQ people tell Sebastion that he is wasting his money because they can assess a tree just by looking?
 
mrtree said:
So I wonder how many TRAQ people tell Sebastion that he is wasting his money because they can assess a tree just by looking?
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Nobody that I know of. He's very highly respected. His colleague Frank Rinn, with whom he seems to work very closely, was on the TRAQ Committee and is one of the most brilliant tree risk assessment experts I know of.

With all due respect mrtree, it's up to the tree risk assessor to inform the client of the limitations of the findings of their Level I or Level II assessment, and to include information about the availability of more advanced assessment tools and of their option to pursue a Level III assessment if they wish to obtain more information. It is however still entirely up to the client to decide whether they want to pay for it.

If it's going to cost close to the price for the removal of the tree, to gain additional information to help them decide whether or not it's a keeper, many tree owners will consider that their kid needs braces, or their car is starting to make a funny noise going down the road, and decide to bite the bullet and remove the tree, rather than roll the dice and run the risk that they'll pay for an expensive advanced assessment, and still wind up making a decision to remove the tree.

I don't think it's so much TRAQ that's the problem. I think a much larger problem is that a large segment of the market wants to get their advice "free" from contractors, rather than paying for an unbiased opinion from an expert consultant. When they want to get information that will enable them to form an opinion whether to remove or retain a tree, and they decide to source that information from someone who makes their living removing trees, rather than paying for an independent, un-conflicted and objective opinion, then out comes the mallet, and down goes the tree.
 
Frank Rinn happens to be my colleague also so I well know the instrumentation, the TRAQ program and the problems with customers.

What I see more and more of is TRAQ being consider an expert qualification. How two days of training is expert I have no idea.

30+ years into trees and I seem to know less and less each day.
 
What I picked up over and over in my TRAQ course is that the coursework, lectures, practical exercises, test and qualification offer no assessment of anything more than the candidates' understanding of the methodology of the process. Not the drilled deep specifics. TRAQ is basically a Tree Risk Assessment M.O. which, if followed, will help to make sure that your assessment is complete within its scope. Utilizing the M.O. steers you toward a likelihood that the data collected will sift and sort into a reasonable conclusion. One which gives the client multiple legitimate options to consider.

The ability to examine a tree , know what information is really pertinent, compile it and reach conclusions from which the client can make an informed decision is gained, wherever and however you can gain it. I was told repeatedly in my course that "this class will in no way make you an expert at Tree Risk Assessment."
 
cerviarborist said:
I was told repeatedly in my course that "this class will in no way make you an expert at Tree Risk Assessment."
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Well your instructor is not telling you the true intention of TRAQ. TRAQ is quite clearly being marketed as making you an expert. On page 1 of the June issue of Arborist News the ad says Preventable? Become an Expert. ISA Tree Risk Assessment Qualification. Look it up, TRAQ instructors do not even know it exists.

In virtually every conversation I have with a TRAQ arborist they say they are an expert and nothing else is needed.

Getting back to PICUS etc. we have ISA dismissing advanced tree risk techniques because they make more money from a sheet of paper, we have educational facilities boosting egos of newly graduated people and in general we have people over confident in their knowledge and skills. All this adds up to a very limited market for PICUS, Resistograph, Pull tests, sway motion sensors, GPR etc.
 
Well, that is certainly a very interesting conversation. I have taken the traq course and I can say that I have rarely pulled out that paperwork to do one since. One thing I can say is that I know when I need one and when I don't. Most of the time I look at the tree, look at the customer and say: how do you feel about his tree? Their answer often dictates the advice I give. For example today: 36" dbh 80 foot tulip hollow from ground up. 12" diameter deadwood in the top. Extensive crown dieback. Previous structural limb failure and multiple lightning strikes. I can look right up through a lateral crack and see daylight where the trunk splits into structural canopy limbs 12 and 14" in diameter. The Tree is in the middle of clients yard 50 feet from the house. The client says: I love this tree. I remember it from when I was a kid. My advice: Well, you can get a dozen qualified tree experts out here, drill and sonarize and probe and hammer and you will end up with a dozen different answers in terms of risk exposure. There are cases where that is important. In your case I recommend you prune out the dead, do a crown reduction and keep an eye on the tree. I know I certainly will and my gut says that tree will still be standing when my 10 year old is driving me by it. (Aside from the extensive decay, the remaining trunk looked pretty good). THAT SAID, I am having Sebastian out here tomorrow to look at some other trees where people are willing to spend the money. I look forward to meeting him and being able to walk around some of the trees that have me puzzled with another structural tree expert.
 
I had the privilege of attending a level 3 advanced assessment course which included multiple demos of the PICUS, Resistograph, and static pull test system. I walked away with the feeling that I would want to have access to all of this equipment before undertaking a level 3 assessment. Each tool has its benefits and limitations. Even with all that equipment and the budget to implement it, it's still impossible to give a tree owner a "guarantee" which can make it a hard sell.


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