are you fast or are you a craftsman?

I understand what you mean by the question as many companies will take speed of craftsmanship. Like the old bull/young bull story speed can effect getting the whole job done.

This does not mean speed and quality can't go hand in hand. HR enough with the hyperbole already. No one on here has said it's one or the other.

I know I'm not the fastest in the tree but I can get the job done in the estimated time and often under safely, and without breakage.

What is more important is that you work in sync with your ground crew so the team works at it's optimum. I've seen fast climbers overwhelm their groundie/s which ends up leaving them waiting for the crew to clear the drop zone. Did the climber's speed make a difference? Yes, but in the wrong way.
 
Safety first, then speed. Its that simple. Tree work is too dangerous.

One chance in a thousand is way too much when you have to do something thousands of times over the course of your career.

I don't hire anyone, nor do I work with or for anyone who doesn't understand this.
 
FulcrumTreeService said:
Safety first, then speed. Its that simple. Tree work is too dangerous.

One chance in a thousand is way too much when you have to do something thousands of times over the course of your career.

I don't hire anyone, nor do I work with or for anyone who doesn't understand this.
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The OP posted regarding craft. Perhaps safety, then craft, then speed?
 
Is this similar to the Oakman or Eucman question?
Maybe a few parallels. During my production days, as I look back, I always felt pressure to get it done as quick as possible so we could move on to the next job. The salesperson would bid the job for x amount of time. majority of the time it was pretty close, but there's been a few times where the mark was missed. No big deal really. Reading through this thread, I didn't (me personally) percieve that fast equals bad. Is it even possible for the fastest climber in the world to move around a canopy faster than a bucket truck? (yes, all jobs are unique, generally speaking, I believe lifts are faster) bucket trucks and cranes are one of the biggest threats to healthy trees that I can think of. None of us would be here if we didn't feel that quality and safe work was important. Fast and quality work is a great combination that few have mastered, I salute those in that category. I've witnesses some really fast poor quality work as well. Also witnessed slow poor work. I'm not fast, but I'm kind of smooth, and smooth is fast. So, I'm kind of both, barely.
 
climbingmonkey24 said:
I regularly spend extra time on a job because of how particular I am about the grass being perfectly clean, etc. I'll get on my hands and knees and start picking up little twigs if I have to if the rake and blower alone don't satisfy me.

My ground guy joked the other day because I just bought a new backpack blower and went to town cleaning up on a NO CLEANUP JOB LOL. No cleanup just stack debris and wood, but I still wanted to blow and rake the yard and everything to make it look like I hadn't been there (other than the stacked piles).

For me it isn't about getting in and out as fast I can. It's about providing a high quality service with efficiency in mind, but with more concern for the quality of the end result than the amount of time it took me to achieve that end result. If I bid a job for 4 hours but am there 5-6 because I want to clean up every last twig and piece of saw dust if I can, or whatever kept me there longer not necessarily cleanup itself, well then I'm okay with that.

Sometimes I have to just turn around and walk away from the yard or I would keep looking for debris to pick up.

Maybe I should bring a shop vac next time?
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I have often thought a beefed up Billy Goat type vacuum would be a worthwhile tool to develop.
 
climbingmonkey24 said:
I regularly spend extra time on a job because of how particular I am about the grass being perfectly clean, etc. I'll get on my hands and knees and start picking up little twigs if I have to if the rake and blower alone don't satisfy me.

My ground guy joked the other day because I just bought a new backpack blower and went to town cleaning up on a NO CLEANUP JOB LOL. No cleanup just stack debris and wood, but I still wanted to blow and rake the yard and everything to make it look like I hadn't been there (other than the stacked piles).

For me it isn't about getting in and out as fast I can. It's about providing a high quality service with efficiency in mind, but with more concern for the quality of the end result than the amount of time it took me to achieve that end result. If I bid a job for 4 hours but am there 5-6 because I want to clean up every last twig and piece of saw dust if I can, or whatever kept me there longer not necessarily cleanup itself, well then I'm okay with that.

Sometimes I have to just turn around and walk away from the yard or I would keep looking for debris to pick up.

Maybe I should bring a shop vac next time?
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You're okay with working two hours for free? Nothing wrong with doing a great job that is stupendous. But if you are going to turn a profit for your company you will need to charge and be profitable. Doing hours worth of work not in the quoted job, why not just go home and clean your own lawn? That was rhetorical by the way. You are not partaking in a hobby by working, you need to be running a business.
 
I want to be efficient, but quality comes first. Always. I don’t want to do anything any other way other than the right way.

this occasionally frustrates a coworker who is more production oriented, particularly their first time working with me. But they quickly understand. I think passion can be infectious. And if they get antsy I tell them to find something else to do unless I need them.

I do think sometimes high efficiency comes with experience that is driven by quality. I feel I am able to produce very efficiently on my PHC routes while at the same time provided the plants with what they need. Starting to see that translate into my climbing.

But I notice experienced climbers move so efficiently through a tree that it enables them more time when the actual work is preformed.
 
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oldoakman said:
I have often thought a beefed up Billy Goat type vacuum would be a worthwhile tool to develop.
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I bought a parking lot blower setup and changed it around to be a vac. There were a couple of clients that hired me to clean out planting beds in fall and spring. The machine had 6" hoses.

After using it a few times I realized that it wasn't so easy to use. Big long sorta flexible hose and a bag that had to be emptied too often.

it had enough power to lift twigs but it also lifted rocks...through the impellers!

After talking with a friend who is a millwright in the packaging industry he told me how much more power it takes to run a vacuum instead of a blower.

Given current backpack blower technology, even the battery ones, it is much simpler and cheaper to buy a backpack blower and learn how to feather the throttle. The catch with doing such a good cleanup job is setting a demarcation line between the existing mess in the yard and the mess I created doing the treework. In the fall, or when a yard was a mess of leaves and twigs, I'd write something on my estimate form letting the client know that I would blow out 'their' debris from 'my' workzone and leave the debris in neat-ish piles. After all...it was Canopy TREE Care not Canopy LAWN Care

Back on topic...doing the job that was sold instead of the job that is needed is an important thing for production climbers to know. If the bid doesn't include removing dead at the branch tips don't do it. That's not a reflection on being a good climber. Leaving stubs or nicks from sloppy cutting in order to speed up production is a reflection on skill.
 
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Sucky comment maybe but when it comes to pruning anyway . . . Alex Shigo talked about not destroying the dignity of the trees in our work. In my travels in Europe, I often look at pollarded trees and various hack jobs and think what a shame. As for speed, for me anyway, I remind myself we are working on living things - in a lot of cases a living thing that will outlast my own lifetime (in spite of David Attenbourgh's latest admonishments that we're all doomed). When you really get into them, they are extraordinary structures. A tree's an organism/ lifeform I want to have treated with respect. To do our work in a craftsman-like manner . . .

In process industry, we look at speed as secondary to safety and it's one of the first places to look for someone on "autopilot". Working at height, no one should every be so sure of themselves or comfy that they slip into "autopilot".
 
Might be worth offering signature tree care with good cleanup, and an option for signature cleanup.


I'm happy, as are customers, who pay for quality work and no clean up, as well as quality work And quality cleanup.

If they value the clean up, they should pay for it.
 
climbingmonkey24 said:
All I said was I don’t mind taking extra time to make sure a yard is perfect and this has turned into a total shit show.

Carry on...
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I agree this thread and your comment has gotten a little overblown. Honestly the whole premise of the tread "fast vs craftsman' is a false-dichotomy which some pointed out, but others have missed. I do think you are being a little defensive here (and maybe some are being a bit offensive?), but I also *hope you stick around because the sense I've always gotten is that you are an honest and hard working guy, who cares about his trade/craft.
 
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When I was first learning carpentry, I always stepped up in plateaus regarding skill and speed. First I got a new task to be done Correctly, repeatedly, then I focused on increasing speed. If I went too fast too early, I'd make a wrong cut, for example. Then, I go cut again, maybe use another board, ultimately slower. I always kept that principal with me, first focus on "doing it right, the first time", as they say; then increase speed to the levels of the experienced workers.

I always get a sense of the time that is bid, and aim to fit the work within that. On the other side, a few years ago we were boat building and the context was: "everything should be perfect. The time nor budget is no issue, just make sure it's great." This sounds luxurious, but it also brings a lot of responsibility because there is no excuse if your creations are not up to spec.

Some pruning jobs lately have been within this open context, so I can focus on properly accessing every section of the tree and doing it all clean, to my absolute highest ability. Then, elsewhere if it's a quicker prune, I may use the pole saw to get at the most glaring stuff, covering a wider area quickly. The finish cuts may not be as proper as when I am right there, but,
another maxim from an early mentor: "Better roughly right, than precisely wrong."
Namely, better to prune the entire tree to an equal level in the time allotted, than do a great job on one half and not reach the other side.

This time/craft dynamic can be super challenging. Of course we strive for our highest ability; then there is also a lot of respect for doing a job that meets the basic intention of the client, making them happy with the result, good enough for our own satisfaction, and completing the whole deal in a way where our companies thrive.
It's a great conversation.
 
Respectfully, in my opinion spending some extra time on the little details is not gonna hurt a company or make you lose money. It could be the thing that cause your customer to refer you to their friends etc. which makes you even more profitable.

If I do a job I’m not doing just the bare minimum, I like to go above and beyond, and I don’t think it’s wrong or hurts production.

That doesn’t mean “do hours of additional work for free” but paying attention to the little fine details isn’t a bad thing.

There’s a difference between doing work not outlined in the original quote for free, and just taking those extra few minutes to really put the icing on the cake with your work / cleanup because you’re passionate about what you’re doing and your work.

Likewise, paying attention to detail doesn’t have to mean you’re slow, you can be efficient with high quality but it also doesn’t need to be a competition here. Everyone operates at their own pace they’re comfortable with.
 
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absolutely agree. I never allow the feeling of "rush" to take over. Nothing good comes from there. We are making such an effort to reach these areas of a tree that won't be touched again until perhaps we return, years later. Totally worth it to take the extra moments to really see what is happening in each section. Sometimes a choice of removing one limb will take a pause for assessment, just to be sure. I default to this. Taking the time to do it right.

On my own jobs, I have full authority over my time. Lately I am primarily contract climbing, so I also consider fitting within expectations; and if I start going overtime, with their ground worker on the clock too.. it's just part of my ongoing evaluation of the progress and goals involved. I am not under huge pressure to knock things out insanely fast. Yet it is a valuable element to be able to budget our time.

I lean towards the craftsman bent. Always have. It is another part of the skillset to fit the work neatly into the day. When I have two complete prunes for one day, and I feel I can do it; there is a pace that I will choose and assess on the way, hoping to reach the goal. But if it's just not happening and we need to go back another day for a couple hours to finish, that's okay too.
I guess for me it's more about rhythm on a good tempo, than speed. Like was mentioned with the fast climber burying the ground folk. Ultimately the way everything comes to a good result smoothly and safely is what I go for.
 
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