Arborist Rigging Nomenclature

[RescueMan]

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knudeNoggin: These are ancient terms, well predating Ashley's effort to establish "bend" as a knot that joins two ropes

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Yes, there are myriad historical precedents which add to the confusion and there is the "bible" (to many) of knots - Ashley. But human history has mostly been a history of folly and I no more base my choices on historical precedent than I do on the infallibility of "scripture". I make language choices based on common sense, clarity, and operational functionality.

[ QUOTE ]
(Were there more thinking, there'd be less confusion.)

[/ QUOTE ]This is where I agree with you. The problem is people doing things because "it's the way it's been done" or because "an authority said so".

- Robert

 

[RescueMan]

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Who is to say what way is the right way when it comes to names?

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Nick, distorting the terms of the discussion doesn't help make your point. Nobody has claimed that there is a "right" way to name a knot. There is no right and wrong in language. Dictionaries used to be prescriptive (describing how language ought to be spoken and written), but they've long since become descriptive (detailing how language is actually used). Slang and jargon are no less "correct" than "proper" English (whatever that is). In fact the term "correct" doesn't apply to language.

But, to foster clear communication - both within and between disciplines - there are conventions of language (widely accepted terminology).

I've been quite clear about my intent: it's to help foster a conventional language of knots so that we can communicate better and avoid the confusion that can lead to mistakes, misunderstandings, and potential danger.

What many practitioners fail to appreciate is that, as human beings, the most important (and universal) tool in any toolbox is language. If you are a master of the technical/mechanical tools of your trade but fail to master the language, not only of your trade but of the broader society we share with others, then you are not yet a master of your art.

I'm trying to encourage mastery of the most vital tool that we all share to foster clear and unambiguous communication. As an example from another set of disciplines: follow-up evaluations of the response to 9/11 in NY concluded that the various responding agencies performed quite well but inter-agency communication was deficient (a common problem at all emergency scenes) and contributed to the loss of life.

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nick, who prefers to call it [the overhand noose] a fisherperson's knot.

[/ QUOTE ] A quick Google search for "fisherman's knot" brings up 7,840 hits and, of the first 10, 9 refered to the overhand bend. So your insistence in using a name for a noose which virtually everyone else uses for an entirely different knot can only contribute to confusion.

 

[knudeNoggin]

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Who is to say what way is the right way when it comes to names? I could see if you were talking about the way to care for a tree- we can come up with a way to test if the treatment is harmful or helpful for a tree. But names are a different. How would you check to see if your way (or any way) is the best way?

[/ QUOTE ]
It's not hard to fault some misuses by a check of history: as I noted above, the
names "fisherman's knot" & "f. bend" are pretty ancient & established--subsequent
misuses are thus identifiable. So, at least, let's limit the damage.

Too much (most) of what is published about knots is the result of little or no
research--copies & miscopies of other books. You look at mistaken images and
wonder "Don't these guys even try to TIE their presented knots?!"; but somehow
the publishing industry is happy to have artist & author rather separate, and
to do lousy QA.

Hmmm, Latin names? --or maye Esperanto?

(-;

 

[knudeNoggin]

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Yes, there are myriad historical precedents which add to the confusion

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That is quite a charge, to find the older sources "adding" to current nonsense!
--as though they lacked foresight in anticipating a future view of the world?
Remember, it was largely Ashley--1944, not so old--who wanted "bend" to mean
what you want for it. Silly predecessors not realizing this!

[ QUOTE ]
and there is the "bible" (to many) of knots - Ashley.

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His work is a reasonable point of departure (don't read "infallible" into "bible",
here), as he at least has made an effort to record the state of the practice, and
to research its history. (Contrast this to, e.g., the voluminous Ency.of Knots &
Fancy Ropework by Graumont & Hensel (jocularly & pejoratively referred to as
"Hansel & Gretel"), where, my goodness, one has no idea of where they got the
motive for featuring so much of what is in that book (and there brief textual
explanations are mostly worthless)!)

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I make language choices based on common sense, clarity, and operational functionality.

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I fail to see how using established knot names contrary to their common usage
is evidence of this? --rather, its confusion.
Straightening out knotting nomenclature (and not just names of knots, but names
for parts) has much going against it, and I think that best way to proceed is to
forge new names which lack the attachments of unwanted senses. E.g., if the
name "Dble. Fish. Knot" is equated to untroubled "Grapevine Bend", gradually we
might move to clarity while letting sleeping dogs lie. (But I might prefer to
have a term other than "bend", for its baggage.)

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The problem is people doing things because "it's the way it's been done" or because "an authority said so".

[/ QUOTE ]
--compounded by mistakes re who is really an authority. A book doesn't make one.
But, yes, the absence of clear rationales for things makes it hard for an
interested student of them to understand, and hard to make amendments to them
with reason & productive gain.

*knudeNoggin*

 

[Lazarus2]

Only just swallowed this thread..............

I feel compelled to walk off a cliff!

 

[Colin]

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Only just swallowed this thread..............

I feel compelled to walk off a cliff!

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Argh, don't worry, just knot nerds blowing of a little steam.

 

[sean_freeman]

Have a few too many beers before reading and its a great thread!!

Come on boy's its good Friday after all

 

[frans]

this discussion reminds me of how the names of trees can be so different according to who is speaking.

Example:
CA. Bay Laurel;
Pepper wood;
Bay tree
laurel tree

Common names of trees can be so many different names while the latin is specific. But not too many clients know the latin names.

 

[NickfromWI]

Umbellularia californica

That's an easy one!

 

[Lazarus2]

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Have a few too many beers before reading and its a great thread!!

Come on boy's its good Friday after all

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmmm.....its not Good Friday anymore - does the beer advice still stand?

What the hell, I've had two already, wifey is out with a gal friend..........

.....ahh!...........

...well, the cliff doesn't look so appealing, but neither does knot nomenclature

The beer fridge, on the other hand is PARTICULARLY appealing

(Note for newbies: no chainsaws, trucks, or other lethal machinery will be operated in the morning

).

 

[Treespotter]

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Perhaps we should begin a system of naming knots that uses latin terms a la scientific names

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Hmmm?

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Second that...........

What's the fun in that one. Now we can argue about '(k)nothing' from time to time.