anyone successfully start a business with no equipment or land?

TeachableHuman said:
How transparent are you all with the clients when it comes to pricing breakdown on the jobs?

Some places I worked the boss/foreman would enforce the crew being onsite the full amount of billable time even if the pruning was seemingly done, doing extras, providing customer service value there. and then sometimes id work places where you charge X for a removal you think will take 6 hours and you get it done in 3 hours and leave. But what if the customer knows you billed for 6 hours would they not enjoy that experience?

Do you guys share your hourly rate? Do you share the pricing model where you charge a rate per crewmember etc? do you share that buckets and other equipment are charged hourly basically? How do you approach this so you make your rate without getting questioned on it. I dont feel I asked the question great but you vets know what I mean.

Some customers reallllly ask a lot of questions and being new I already am having trouble charging what I need too.
Click to expand...
Price for the job, if they want a breakdown tell them no.
 
Mick Dempsey! said:
Price for the job, if they want a breakdown tell them no.
Click to expand...
100%
I will give them a price per tree. If there is a really small tree that is part of the quote, I note that that is only good if we are doing other work on site. If there is a whole bunch of stuff, I will give a 5 or 10% discount if they want us to do everything.

If I did so poorly on the bid that I overestimate by 100%, I will usually give them a discount when I invoice... Somewhere around splitting the difference between what I bid and how long it actually took, rounding up... But that is just me being nice. They agreed to a project not a number of hours. Unless there is some unforeseeable circumstance, I never go back and ask for more money (it never without talking to them first)... This is why I don't give a full price break on jobs we get done quickly. You win some, you lose some.

If you start telling somebody an hourly rate, and you throw out something like $250 per hour, people just do not understand that that is not a lot of money that you are bringing home by the time you pay your team, direct expenses like fuel, etc, let alone depreciation on equipment.
 
Njdelaney said:
And there shouldn't be a penalty for being efficient and good at your job.
Click to expand...
Well put. This is how mechanics make money. They get paid a relatively low per hour rate...but they get paid the book rate for a job. If they do the job faster, they get to move on to the next thing. So a mechanic that can do 16 hours worth of work in a day does OK. One that can only do 8, is probably not. I like what we have discussed here better than that "fake hours" model. Feels more honest: I'll give you a job price and not say anything about the hours. Take it or leave it.
 
Good clients sometimes get a day rate (7hrs onsite) which they could work backwards for a per hr, but generally bid the job. For transparency I give a no cleanup option or no rake discount (one this fall was $400+ discount that they didn’t bite on…).
As to the rate per equipment: your yearly overhead doesn’t change per job!!! If we don’t have a chipper or mini onsite I am still making payments, there is still maintenance. Those investments were made to gross more, if they are not billed out you won’t net more.
 
I still get stuck on this. There is no perfect recipe.

I recently got a big old F-u email after getting stiffed on the second half payment from an emergency job.
A hemlock broke at the crown partly uprooted hanging steeper than a 45 hung on a small doug fir. Right over the house drop. Smallish tree.
Looked at it on a Monday and said I’d be there the next day. Red flag 1, when I got the email of approval, saying next day won’t work and if I can do it on Wednesday she’ll go for it.
I cleared the schedule expecting a little more than half a day worse case since it involved some solo rigging. I priced it at 1.25 of my day rate (which I didn’t disclose the day rate part just a fixed price).
Showed up, and got a guilt trip that she canceled her appointment the previous day at the dentist (the reason she dictated Wednesday over the offered Tuesday) because she couldn’t afford both.
Anyway I had some other shit I had to get to, and set up a false crotch rigging point. Set up the GRCS and tied it off with a throwline. I was expecting to just hold the weight while I pieced it out but with all the hand crank I had in me I was able to lift it. A risky move as my rigging point was a compound pulley system in the Doug fir limbs also over the wire. 2.5 hours got it done.

Apparently she reverse engineered my prices and called 3 other tree services who all agreed I greatly exceeded the going hourly rate. So she is now refusing to pay me the remainder. After the dentist story I offered a 1/2 now 1/2 30 day payment. 7 weeks and multiple contact attempts is when I got the letter of refusal to pay up.
 
evo said:
I still get stuck on this. There is no perfect recipe.

I recently got a big old F-u email after getting stiffed on the second half payment from an emergency job.
A hemlock broke at the crown partly uprooted hanging steeper than a 45 hung on a small doug fir. Right over the house drop. Smallish tree.
Looked at it on a Monday and said I’d be there the next day. Red flag 1, when I got the email of approval, saying next day won’t work and if I can do it on Wednesday she’ll go for it.
I cleared the schedule expecting a little more than half a day worse case since it involved some solo rigging. I priced it at 1.25 of my day rate (which I didn’t disclose the day rate part just a fixed price).
Showed up, and got a guilt trip that she canceled her appointment the previous day at the dentist (the reason she dictated Wednesday over the offered Tuesday) because she couldn’t afford both.
Anyway I had some other shit I had to get to, and set up a false crotch rigging point. Set up the GRCS and tied it off with a throwline. I was expecting to just hold the weight while I pieced it out but with all the hand crank I had in me I was able to lift it. A risky move as my rigging point was a compound pulley system in the Doug fir limbs also over the wire. 2.5 hours got it done.

Apparently she reverse engineered my prices and called 3 other tree services who all agreed I greatly exceeded the going hourly rate. So she is now refusing to pay me the remainder. After the dentist story I offered a 1/2 now 1/2 30 day payment. 7 weeks and multiple contact attempts is when I got the letter of refusal to pay up.
Click to expand...
One of the guys I work for had nearly the exact same situation! What the fuck is wrong with these people. Do they not understand what emergency services means? Would they fucking pull that shit to the ambulance company or the ER surgeon?
 
evo said:
I still get stuck on this. There is no perfect recipe.

I recently got a big old F-u email after getting stiffed on the second half payment from an emergency job.
A hemlock broke at the crown partly uprooted hanging steeper than a 45 hung on a small doug fir. Right over the house drop. Smallish tree.
Looked at it on a Monday and said I’d be there the next day. Red flag 1, when I got the email of approval, saying next day won’t work and if I can do it on Wednesday she’ll go for it.
I cleared the schedule expecting a little more than half a day worse case since it involved some solo rigging. I priced it at 1.25 of my day rate (which I didn’t disclose the day rate part just a fixed price).
Showed up, and got a guilt trip that she canceled her appointment the previous day at the dentist (the reason she dictated Wednesday over the offered Tuesday) because she couldn’t afford both.
Anyway I had some other shit I had to get to, and set up a false crotch rigging point. Set up the GRCS and tied it off with a throwline. I was expecting to just hold the weight while I pieced it out but with all the hand crank I had in me I was able to lift it. A risky move as my rigging point was a compound pulley system in the Doug fir limbs also over the wire. 2.5 hours got it done.

Apparently she reverse engineered my prices and called 3 other tree services who all agreed I greatly exceeded the going hourly rate. So she is now refusing to pay me the remainder. After the dentist story I offered a 1/2 now 1/2 30 day payment. 7 weeks and multiple contact attempts is when I got the letter of refusal to pay up.
Click to expand...
If you have a signed contract, will you put a lein on the property?
 
Yesterday, I worked next door to the house where I got stiffed $1200 in an agreed to, but not signed contract.


I told her in the bid process that a crane would be around $1200. I didn't say that I would definitely use a crane.

I was able to climb and piece it out and move all logs to the designated place by mini.

She thought that since I used my machine and operator, she shouldn't pay the set bid-price.
 
southsoundtree said:
Yesterday, I worked next door to the house where I got stiffed $1200 in an agreed to, but not signed contract.


I told her in the bid process that a crane would be around $1200. I didn't say that I would definitely use a crane.

I was able to climb and piece it out and move all logs to the designated place by mini.

She thought that since I used my machine and operator, she shouldn't pay the set bid-price.
Click to expand...
Tbh Sean, that’s a sticky one.
Not sure you’re 100% morally in the clear there.
I mean you were there during the conversation, but I can understand her misgivings.
 
levi r said:
Unless there was a specific line item for the crane then she owes the dough, imo. If the quote was "remove tree for x amount," no mention of crane, time to pay up!
Click to expand...
Yeah, I guess.
But, as I read it, the crane was mentioned, Sean says “I did not definitely say I’d use a crane” but it was implied in the conversation and the cost reflected that.
Sure she owes, but for me it’s not completely black and white.
 
I appreciate you saying both parts, Mick.

She got a bid that basically said to dismantle the tree, chip the ɓrush up to X" diameter onto the ground at an agreed upon spot, stack logs at an agreed upon spot and leave a girdled habitat snag at a spec'ed height.

As always with all customers (unless spec'ed on the contract), she got very good cleanup, no impact to speak of (unless spec'ed), and was happy with the results.


There was no agreement to methods or equipment.

While talking about various plans, including ropes and mini,
I mentioned that a crane was a possibility and that would add $1200 for the crane company to the equation, and be faster and easier. Also, I mentioned possibly needing flaggers, which I didn't need/ use, nor charge for having used them.
 
Last edited:
Has she paid anything?

What's crane rental?

In those situations, might at least explain: "We decided to not do it with a crane because this was was lower impact. However, it takes more time than a crane would have so it's a tradeoff. I understand you think that makes it worth less money...can we find a solution here?"

I agree the solution is $1200...but 900 is better than nothing!

(PS: you own the crane? How do you get a crane job for $1200 total? I'd assume the crane itself is more than that...plus your labor)
 
southsoundtree said:
Yesterday, I worked next door to the house where I got stiffed $1200 in an agreed to, but not signed contract.


I told her in the bid process that a crane would be around $1200. I didn't say that I would definitely use a crane.

I was able to climb and piece it out and move all logs to the designated place by mini.

She thought that since I used my machine and operator, she shouldn't pay the set bid-price.
Click to expand...
I'm a little confused or perhaps missing some info.

Did you bid $1200 for the tree, with a $1200 addendum if a crane is needed? So $2400 total if using the crane?

You didn't require the crane, so the initial $1200 is the total owing, and she refused to pay that? Am I following correctly?

If that's the case I'm not sure what her issue is. You saved her money by not using a crane.
 
I’m tempted but that’s just out of spite and because I’m pissed.
She certainly isn’t rolling in $ and if it’s that important for her to stiff me on the remaining $500 balance fuuuk it and move on.
 
A few of us started out with bicycles. @treebing, Sam Finco, and I. Now is an even better time to start with a bicycle since the development of lithium battery assustance. I was high as a kite with endorphins and also got (resolved via a single cortical steroid injection) carpal tunnel from pulling on my bike handles + dialing in my hitch/rope combo in the rain as a newb climber. As long as you present professional and don't low-ball, you're as good as the other start-ups - arguably better because the level at which tree work is performed usually correlates directly to the amount of debris - less debris = more professional work, more debris = less professionalism. If you double down on professionalism you release yourself from competitive pricing. (Wear a kilt and you can even compete on a lot of those large removals... :D)

When you have to remove, *some* crane jobs lend themselves to working without heavy equipment that you own. You sub the crane and the debris hauling, and have some way to compensate for not having a mini/full skid. It may be possible to solo l, but a crew of one or two is great. Three is great if you need to capture Instagrables.
 
Boomslang said:
I'm a little confused or perhaps missing some info.

Did you bid $1200 for the tree, with a $1200 addendum if a crane is needed? So $2400 total if using the crane?

You didn't require the crane, so the initial $1200 is the total owing, and she refused to pay that? Am I following correctly?

If that's the case I'm not sure what her issue is. You saved her money by not using a crane.
Click to expand...
I’m also confused about this particular bid.

When I mention cranes as a possibility I usually present it as just that, a possibility- the price is set regardless, as not using a crane will require equal parts additional labor. Sometimes the crane operator we contract out might not be able to reach the tree, sometimes you got a hot shot climber who can wham bam it, things happen.

For the same logic I don’t get into the weeds about how a removal is going to be done- rigged or not, speed lined, felled a certain way- I say we will avoid damage to XYZ, and sometimes put in work plans for the crew but always as ‘the arborist may elect to fell the tree into the woods” etc.
 
Stumpsprouts said:
I’m also confused about this particular bid.

When I mention cranes as a possibility I usually present it as just that, a possibility- the price is set regardless, as not using a crane will require equal parts additional labor. Sometimes the crane operator we contract out might not be able to reach the tree, sometimes you got a hot shot climber who can wham bam it, things happen.

For the same logic I don’t get into the weeds about how a removal is going to be done- rigged or not, speed lined, felled a certain way- I say we will avoid damage to XYZ, and sometimes put in work plans for the crew but always as ‘the arborist may elect to fell the tree into the woods” etc.
Click to expand...
Im oh so very fond of ‘at climbing arborists discretion’
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

New threads New posts

Kask Stihl NORTHEASTERN Arborists Wesspur TreeStuff.com Teufelberger Westminster X-Rigging Teufelberger
Back
Top Bottom