- Location
- Home of the New Jersey Devils
Not really. I would assume that the rigging line ran on top of the climbing line and not along side it. It was high up so all other takes is one good run.
Another sad loss in NJ
- Thread starter Mark Chisholm
- Start date
Roger_Barnett
Participating member
- Location
- Seattle, in the PNWet
That is so sad, Mark! I try to be always aware of that exact scenario coming into play. Watch like a hawk, avoid it if at all possible, slack lifeline during the critical rigging time, inspect......as has been discussed above by many good people.
Let's all stay healthy and come home to your loved ones.
Let's all stay healthy and come home to your loved ones.
TimBr
Official Well Known Greeter
- Location
- Northern Virginia
I think if he'd been using DSRT, he might still be alive, but possibly badly banged up. Also possibly not banged up at all.
Tim
TimBr
Official Well Known Greeter
- Location
- Northern Virginia
I'm sorry to hear that he died in that way.
Something similar happened to me two years ago, so I'll share in hopes that everyone can be safer. I had an isolated SRT/SRS anchor for my cougar blue climbing line, with the rigging line (Samson Arbor-plex 3/4" rigging line) running through a cmi steel block pulley on tenex a couple feet below it. Upon weighting the system with a branch and having it lowered, the rigging line severed the cougar blue 1/3-1/2 the way through the line on the section leading from the top to my base tie (which was out and about across the fishing pole instead of tucked next to the trunk) , with exposed inner core strands. The rigging line is a solid braid with each strand having a soft outside with abrasive plasticky material inside. It is a great rope for natural crotch rigging. *BUT*, the natural crotch rigging exposes the abrasive inner material. I am not sure if this was what cut my climbing line - it's fully as possible that the friction alone was enough. There was definitely melted material on the cougar blue, and no melting on the Samson line. There was blue color on the Samson line from the cougar blue sloughing off onto it.
I made another mistake by assuming that the error would not happen again - that it was a freak accident, and had another climber take over the next day while I parented my son (it was a full-sized laurel oak over a house that took a few days for my small company to take down, early on in my business founding process). It happened to him as well, and he also survived (otherwise that would be on my conscience and he'd be dead...). He used the same rigging point and probably went for the same crotch with his climbing line. He might have been on poison ivy, and usually climbed MRS/DdRT. He was starting out at a production tree company and was an experienced competition rock climber. We both bought new ropes and went on, a little more experienced than before...
The important lessons for me, in order of importance, are:
- In SRT/SRS config with a base tie, the abrasion exposure of the line extending down to the base tie increases as the line's angle departs from the vertical. In my case, the fishing pole config was bad. I'd like to know what system this man was on, and where the climbing line was in relation to the rigging line.
- The closer the anchors are for rigging and climbing, the more likely they are to abraid each other. Sometimes the position of the rigging line changes when it is loaded. I've gotten rope burn from this, and I've been able to predict it when climbing through a canopy to establish redirects for technical rigging. As I climb, I redirect my climbing line and rigging line in close proximity to each other. If the rigging line behaves differently under load, it's possible for it to cross my climbing line. This is an SRT/SRS problem.
- The *climber* (not the ground crew because, let's face it, they are not good at things in the tree...) is responsible to pay attention to preventing the crossover of rigging and climbing lines, and also for detecting it when it occurs (and it will probably occur).
- Climbers should always weight their attachment points fully before going to a single attachment point after completing "work".
- The climber can get help from groundies by requesting a visual inspection with binoculars of the affected area. The ground crew can look for exposed core, which will likely appear different than the outer sheath. In this case, white core against blue sheath.
- When the cougar blue was abraided by the white samson rigging line it left blue melt traces on the rigging line. We all thought "huh...", dumbasses that we were. If the two lines have any contrast, you can drop the rigging line to the ground for inspection.
- The texture of the rigging line is something to watch. The texture of the climbing line is probably less relevant. I pay a lot of attention to how rope construction matches rope use and kind of assume that everyone else does to. Two years ago I was much greener - only 6 month in to my climbing career.
- When unlikely things happen, it's often because the circumstance is rare rather than what happens in that circumstance. The likelihood of the event happening again *in that circumstance* may be extremely high, as evidenced by my friend experiencing the same thing the next day.
- Longterm, it may become more effective and safer to use two attachment points for traveling and three points for working. A lot of climbers are experiencing the benefits of climbing on two lines in some situations, and those situations seem to be increasing in number.
- In SRT config with a base tie, the line to the base tie is exposed when it's across a fishing pole position.
Something similar happened to me two years ago, so I'll share in hopes that everyone can be safer. I had an isolated SRT/SRS anchor for my cougar blue climbing line, with the rigging line (Samson Arbor-plex 3/4" rigging line) running through a cmi steel block pulley on tenex a couple feet below it. Upon weighting the system with a branch and having it lowered, the rigging line severed the cougar blue 1/3-1/2 the way through the line on the section leading from the top to my base tie (which was out and about across the fishing pole instead of tucked next to the trunk) , with exposed inner core strands. The rigging line is a solid braid with each strand having a soft outside with abrasive plasticky material inside. It is a great rope for natural crotch rigging. *BUT*, the natural crotch rigging exposes the abrasive inner material. I am not sure if this was what cut my climbing line - it's fully as possible that the friction alone was enough. There was definitely melted material on the cougar blue, and no melting on the Samson line. There was blue color on the Samson line from the cougar blue sloughing off onto it.
I made another mistake by assuming that the error would not happen again - that it was a freak accident, and had another climber take over the next day while I parented my son (it was a full-sized laurel oak over a house that took a few days for my small company to take down, early on in my business founding process). It happened to him as well, and he also survived (otherwise that would be on my conscience and he'd be dead...). He used the same rigging point and probably went for the same crotch with his climbing line. He might have been on poison ivy, and usually climbed MRS/DdRT. He was starting out at a production tree company and was an experienced competition rock climber. We both bought new ropes and went on, a little more experienced than before...
The important lessons for me, in order of importance, are:
- In SRT/SRS config with a base tie, the abrasion exposure of the line extending down to the base tie increases as the line's angle departs from the vertical. In my case, the fishing pole config was bad. I'd like to know what system this man was on, and where the climbing line was in relation to the rigging line.
- The closer the anchors are for rigging and climbing, the more likely they are to abraid each other. Sometimes the position of the rigging line changes when it is loaded. I've gotten rope burn from this, and I've been able to predict it when climbing through a canopy to establish redirects for technical rigging. As I climb, I redirect my climbing line and rigging line in close proximity to each other. If the rigging line behaves differently under load, it's possible for it to cross my climbing line. This is an SRT/SRS problem.
- The *climber* (not the ground crew because, let's face it, they are not good at things in the tree...) is responsible to pay attention to preventing the crossover of rigging and climbing lines, and also for detecting it when it occurs (and it will probably occur).
- Climbers should always weight their attachment points fully before going to a single attachment point after completing "work".
- The climber can get help from groundies by requesting a visual inspection with binoculars of the affected area. The ground crew can look for exposed core, which will likely appear different than the outer sheath. In this case, white core against blue sheath.
- When the cougar blue was abraided by the white samson rigging line it left blue melt traces on the rigging line. We all thought "huh...", dumbasses that we were. If the two lines have any contrast, you can drop the rigging line to the ground for inspection.
- The texture of the rigging line is something to watch. The texture of the climbing line is probably less relevant. I pay a lot of attention to how rope construction matches rope use and kind of assume that everyone else does to. Two years ago I was much greener - only 6 month in to my climbing career.
- When unlikely things happen, it's often because the circumstance is rare rather than what happens in that circumstance. The likelihood of the event happening again *in that circumstance* may be extremely high, as evidenced by my friend experiencing the same thing the next day.
- Longterm, it may become more effective and safer to use two attachment points for traveling and three points for working. A lot of climbers are experiencing the benefits of climbing on two lines in some situations, and those situations seem to be increasing in number.
- In SRT config with a base tie, the line to the base tie is exposed when it's across a fishing pole position.
treehumper
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Ridgefield, NJ
We talked about this on Friday and one of our climbers knows friend of the victim. I've heard variations on how this played out. Sadly he had a young family that has to deal with this. Condolences.
What I see as the lesson for me and my crew is that it is still a team effort. I need to be able to walk through the scenarios when initially installing both systems, rigging and life support. After that, rope management becomes a joint effort. The lines can and do react in ways that aren't always predictable, adjust in response to what we observe. Continue to watch and observe. Has your climb line moved into the drop zone? As angles change are pieces going to swing into your line, no matter the set up(DDrT, SRT).
If they do cross no matter what section of the line, pull up both ropes and inspect. Even the basal tie.
This is not an indictment of any system as all of them are exposed to this kind of danger, its a wake up call about working first from a safety standpoint.
Take away for me is; Slow it down and keep it safe always.
What I see as the lesson for me and my crew is that it is still a team effort. I need to be able to walk through the scenarios when initially installing both systems, rigging and life support. After that, rope management becomes a joint effort. The lines can and do react in ways that aren't always predictable, adjust in response to what we observe. Continue to watch and observe. Has your climb line moved into the drop zone? As angles change are pieces going to swing into your line, no matter the set up(DDrT, SRT).
If they do cross no matter what section of the line, pull up both ropes and inspect. Even the basal tie.
This is not an indictment of any system as all of them are exposed to this kind of danger, its a wake up call about working first from a safety standpoint.
Take away for me is; Slow it down and keep it safe always.
Daniel
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Suburban Philadelphia (Wayne)
This is another great example of juts how one small detail can result in a fatality in our industry. One little oversight and BANG Dad is dead!!!!.. Let that be a warning to newcomers.. If you don't have a good safety conscious attitude, find another way to make a living. And for the rest of us.... even if you do have a good safety consciousness this could happen to you too!
IN my first month in the biz, I saw a climber allow the rigging line to burn his climbing line (it was all arborplex back then).. He asked the ground guys to lower the piece slowly afterr it had run a bit .. BIG 14"+ tulip limb... He was 75' up easy.. So he finisheds the tree and then comes down and shows the rope damage.. Burned at least 2/3 of the way through. We all were shocked to see so much damage from the burn and amazed that it held... ANyone looking at that rope would say it was a close call..
Its the climbers responibilty to make sure his life line is clear of the rigging line. When tied into another tree, and rigging out of that tree I have unclipped form my life line and let it go slack to keep the rigging line from contacting or damaging the line. If the life line is not under tension minor contact with a riggign line will not generally cause damage... Obviously it s best to make sure the rigging line goes under the life line..
WOuld be good to get more info of exactly how the rigging and life line were configured.... INspecting your life line after its damaged is a good policy, but wouldn't be used if there was no damage in the first place... That's where the best lesson from this can be learned.
RIP and prayers for his family...
IN my first month in the biz, I saw a climber allow the rigging line to burn his climbing line (it was all arborplex back then).. He asked the ground guys to lower the piece slowly afterr it had run a bit .. BIG 14"+ tulip limb... He was 75' up easy.. So he finisheds the tree and then comes down and shows the rope damage.. Burned at least 2/3 of the way through. We all were shocked to see so much damage from the burn and amazed that it held... ANyone looking at that rope would say it was a close call..
Its the climbers responibilty to make sure his life line is clear of the rigging line. When tied into another tree, and rigging out of that tree I have unclipped form my life line and let it go slack to keep the rigging line from contacting or damaging the line. If the life line is not under tension minor contact with a riggign line will not generally cause damage... Obviously it s best to make sure the rigging line goes under the life line..
WOuld be good to get more info of exactly how the rigging and life line were configured.... INspecting your life line after its damaged is a good policy, but wouldn't be used if there was no damage in the first place... That's where the best lesson from this can be learned.
RIP and prayers for his family...
easyphloem
Branched out member
- Location
- Louisville, KY
Friction can be your best friend, or your worst enemy.
Condolences to all involved.
SZ
Condolences to all involved.
SZ
TimBr
Official Well Known Greeter
- Location
- Northern Virginia
An idea that's occurring to me after reading all of this is to keep a relatively new or unused climbing line standing by all of the time, on the ground. If an incident happens that causes you to question the safety of the rope you are currently on, take the time to swap it out. Then you can examine the possibly damaged rope later, from the safety and comfort of the ground, and at your leasure.
Tim
Tim
