Aerial Rescue: CHECK CALL CARE

Babberney

Babberney

Location
Austin, TX
My previous post describes the lessons I learned judging AR. I mentioned Tom's advice to use the three C's. It all seemed pretty clear going in, but partway through the day I had a question.

Does this mean "CHECK" from the ground to see there is an injury and immediately CALL EMT's? Or should we get to the dummy/patient, CHECK, his status, and then CALL for relevant aid? One climber asked us to get a first aid kit, not to call 911. Now, if the guy is just dehydrated and cramping, EMT's are probably not needed, and it would be a waste to have them out so quickly. But, if EMT's are needed, it would be a tragedy to have them arrive five minutes late.

So, should "CALL 911" be the first words out of a contestant's mouth once he enters the ring, or should he wait for more info?

Keith
 
Really, if you're actually having to rescue someone from a tree, it probably would be a good idea to call 911 no matter what you might think. You wouldn't know until you were up there the extent of whatever, so why gamble on it? In terms of judging or scoring a competition, I dunno.
 
It really depends on the actual TCC scenerio.
I judged our AR on Saturday and our scenerio was that the EMT was already on site and has instructed you to go get him, so there was no need to call 911. But those who did best were those you used constant communication between both the victim and the EMT.
 
In real life Keith, I would quickly assess the situation for severity. If it was questionable- call them first. If you are fairly certain that it was not that serious, then I wouldn't waste the EMT's time. Remeber that you are only supposed to do CPR or other severe techniques UNTIL qualified people are on site. CPR alone has like a 2% survival rate, so I'd get them to you ASAP.
 
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It really depends on the actual TCC scenerio.
I judged our AR on Saturday and our scenerio was that the EMT was already on site and has instructed you to go get him, so there was no need to call 911. But those who did best were those you used constant communication between both the victim and the EMT.

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This junk right here is why i absolutely HATE the AR event. There is no set scenerio from one chapter to the next. And if the EMT is ON SITE, why in H... would one be in a hurry? Hence the 5 minute time limit is obsolete.

I know there is a buzzer here named judge and if you are infact a TCC judge that has anything to do w/ the International rules, get this fixed. Figure something out so that each chapter is the same.

I realize if there was not a time limit, this event would take all day and therefore, I agree a time limit is needed. But at least make it a life like scenario.
 
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This junk right here is why i absolutely HATE the AR event. There is no set scenerio from one chapter to the next. And if the EMT is ON SITE, why in H... would one be in a hurry? Hence the 5 minute time limit is obsolete.

I know there is a buzzer here named judge and if you are infact a TCC judge that has anything to do w/ the International rules, get this fixed. Figure something out so that each chapter is the same.

I realize if there was not a time limit, this event would take all day and therefore, I agree a time limit is needed. But at least make it a life like scenario.

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From the ITCC rules:

"The standard rescue scenario is that the incident has just occurred, and the contestant, as first responder, has assumed control of the site, taken control of all relevant safety issues, and will contact local emergency services.

"While the contestant is entering the tree, the EMT arrives. The EMT on site has instructed the contestant that the injured climber must be lowered safely to the ground so that the EMT can perform an assessment."

That standardizes it pretty well, IMO. A big improvement over past versions of the event. I'm not saying it's perfect, but I'd be hard pressed to improve on it.

As for why you would hurry, I would have thought that was obvious. If an injured person is not breathing or has no pulse, five minutes generally means dead. Since we assume it is not a life-threatening emergency, and since it is more reasonable to perform most basic first aid in the tree, the event is a bit of a stretch, I admit. But the longer someone hangs in a saddle, the worse off he'll be, most likely. Why wouldn't you hurry?

K
 
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If victim is unconcious, 911 is the first step.

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Not always Nick.
What if you are alone with the victim or there's no phone service?
You need to get that person on the ground and administer first aid first.
If someone else can leave the scene and call 911 that's fine but it isn't <u>always</u> the first step in saving a life.
 
okietreedude1

at the ITCC the scenario is as it says in the rule book, its just the "injury" that changes. chapters can and do change the scenario for regional comps, thats their choice. if it was the same every where, all the time then people would only pratice that rescue and part of been a first responeder is been able to respond to the rescue situation, what ever it is.
more tricks and gadgets appear at the AR than any other event as people are thinking out of the box, because they dont know what to expect.

i think babbereny answered the five minute question and if you do think of any changes that you want to be considered, let me know before we start the rewrite the rules again in september,as only a few of the tcc chapter liasions come back with comments.

for me, i think that the small check boxes on the AR score sheet need to be changed to bullit points so that they are used as more of a guide than a check list, any thoughts?
 
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for me, i think that the small check boxes on the AR score sheet need to be changed to bullit points so that they are used as more of a guide than a check list, any thoughts?

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yes. We viewed these lists as things to look for, but did not count one checked box=one point, up to ten. Some boxes seem more important than others, some seem redundant, some things that earned points were not listed.

But after we turned in a few sheets, the scoring table paid us a visit. They were worried about the results of a protest if we checked three boxes but gave five points, for example (once we weere plain about our methods, they were fine with it.

It should be plainer that the judges assign points based on their own assessments of the event, not by a formula as laid out in check boxes.

k
 
i think that's the way to go, the box's make it too much like a check list,it was desgined to give the judges some help with pointers/thing's to look for, as the old sheets had nothing, and as you point out, some of them are not relevant to some climbs. i think with a litle more info in the scoring guildlines it would make a better system.
 
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As for why you would hurry, I would have thought that was obvious. If an injured person is not breathing or has no pulse, five minutes generally means dead. Since we assume it is not a life-threatening emergency, and since it is more reasonable to perform most basic first aid in the tree, the event is a bit of a stretch, I admit. But the longer someone hangs in a saddle, the worse off he'll be, most likely. Why wouldn't you hurry?

K

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Sure guys, I realize if the guy was not responding to ground voice communication, youd hurry your arse off to get there. Personally, Id call 911 and then go. No way would the emt show up while I was on my way up the tree. Chances are, youd have the guy on the ground before the emts showed up. Even in my smallish town, Id guess it would take 5+ minutes for emts to show. As for why I wouldnt hurry, its not like Id sit down and have coffee w/ the emts, but if I was up there and the guy was concious or breathing but hurt to the point he couldnt come down on his own (major saw cut), there are thing you could do in the tree that taking five minutes to get him down wouldnt matter. Heat exhaustion, you can get him to a seated position. Sure I understand its all easier w/ the person on the ground, and even if the guys awake he could pass out any second and therefore, you need to get him down.

Back at the first event I ever saw, at the AR event it was sceneriod like you walked into the back yard from the front and found your guy out in the tree. It was up to you to get help, get up, get down. No pre-installed line, no emt on site or showing up while you were going up. You worked alone just like it is on MANY job sites. There were no tricks and toys because you didnt take time to go back your bag and dig them out.

Mainly what Im saying is take it back to a realistic jobsite format. HOw many guys really climb each and EVERY tree w/ a second preinstalled line? I never have and I dont even have a second climbing line on the truck except for the ones that have been retired to lowering lines.
 
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HOw many guys really climb each and EVERY tree w/ a second preinstalled line?

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In my first 5 yrs as a treeworker, how many times I've seen guys leave an access line while they work the tree? Not a 1. Zero. Zilch.
I do carry a few ropes around with me now, and from what I've learned from TCC's and trade shows, its just good practice/habit to leave an access line to the top of a big tree for a potential rescuer.
In a real rescue, I would prefer it if the victim left me an access line. Its the least he (or she) could do. :^).
 
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All of our guys use access lines for entry in all taller trees. Sure, small trees with low branches might be done more traditionally, but they won't be that hard to climb if a rescue is needed anyway.

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thats what we do, but you'r also not allowed to climb unless ther's another climber on site, with kit to perform a rescue.
 
Check, Call, Care is done first and continues as the rescue proceeds.

Check
Scene when the accident is noticed
Victim for consciousness
Equipment
Many more times to 'Check' as things change

All of the C's need to happen continuously.

Check with your local Red Cross or EMT service to find the latest protocols for when to Call if a victim is unconscious.
 
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HOw many guys really climb each and EVERY tree w/ a second preinstalled line?

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It is the law here. I rarely see it or do it. With the exception of large trees.
 
We use access lines as standard parctice.

Using a second line makes sense from a ergonomic as well as a safety point of view. It guarantees a easy access after a break, in an emergency it allows the fastest possible access, eliminating many of the critical change-over points where mistakes can occur under stress (as opposed to a conventional access).

In my opinion, when defining best practice standards, there are really no plausible arguments against an access line.

BTW this is probably also the reason you'll see access lines use in 99% of all Masters' climbs at the TCC's.
 
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