Addressing hitch binding with the Rope Wrench on descent

I've posted this before, but this tree was about 220 give or take.....in case youre wondering how it looks ip thete Tim. A skinny one mind, whilst the one I may or may not get to prune is a big old fat thing.


I've pruned others that have been up and around 170.....but it makes sense to work a tree that size in vertical spans, ie a top half and a bottom half. 2 x 200 ft lines will get it done.
 
[QUOTE="TimBr, post: 470048, member: 9161"....I use my Rope Wrench on a Mammut rope that I think is 10.5mm in diameter, if I recall correctly. My hitch cord is most likely to be 10mm Beeline, but I also use 9.5 mm Epicord sometimes, I'd say.....[/QUOTE]

Tim, using a climbing line of 10.5mm is a rarity in the tree working world, especially for work positioning, for a reason. Its small surface area makes it much less forgiving to friction management with the belay tools that we use.
 
DSMc said:
[QUOTE="TimBr, post: 470048, member: 9161"....I use my Rope Wrench on a Mammut rope that I think is 10.5mm in diameter, if I recall correctly. My hitch cord is most likely to be 10mm Beeline, but I also use 9.5 mm Epicord sometimes, I'd say.....
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Tim, using a climbing line of 10.5mm is a rarity in the tree working world, especially for work positioning, for a reason. Its small surface area makes it much less forgiving to friction management with the belay tools that we use.[/QUOTE]

I had a fairly long post I was in the middle of writing get wiped out on me due to a computer glitch, but I'll try again.

First, Just so you know, I purchased a 200 foot Vortex rope based on a previous recommendation you'd made.

Right now I'm not in a position to replace my Mammut rope just yet, so I guess I was seeking answers to the questions of technique that might make things better with the rope I already have. As it turns out, I'm actually glad now that I've had these issues, because I've been learning so much in this thread with regard to slick and subtle technique, it is making all of the trouble worth it, in the end.

Thanks to moss, who started this thread, and all of the other folks who have shared their knowledge in this thread, I have gotten many great answers that I believe will help me immensely.

For the record, I have had days in which my hitch behaved beautifully on my Mammut rope, allowing me to drop 60 or 70 feet in about 10 seconds or so, in an easy and controlled manner, with no hitch binding whatsoever. So I know it is possible, and I guess I figured the issues of hitch binding were due to something that I was doing wrong or differently.

This thread has given me a bunch of things to try the next few times I climb, to see if more consistant performance is attainable with the gear I already own.

I am not dismissing your suggestion of using larger diameter ropes, DSMc. It just needs to wait a bit. Everyone seems to love the Yale 11.7mm ropes. I think that is one of the choices that seem to work well in most of the fully mechanical devices out there, so by way of killing two birds with one stone, I'll probably end up with some of that as my next rope.

While I'm waiting, I'll have time to do more research, and to settle on a specific brand and model of rope, so that I'll be ready when the time comes.

Thanks again, always, for all of your valuable input.

Tim
 
There are days I fly a thinner rope and my first reaction is most always "I love how light this is!" Not far beyond that point I'm thinking "This is awful!"
 
@TimBr, not sure if it's been mentioned in this thread, so I'll add it due to relevance...if you can build the habit of climbing 6" to 1' higher than you need to, this can allow you to engage the Rope Wrench as the hitch engages. This creates the effect of a contained DdRT system in which the hitch only sees a fraction of your weight.

Conversely, if you hang on your hitch while the Rope Wrench is disengaged, the hitch will obviously see 100% of your weight.

This subtle habit, along with a few others I'm sure, can make for a much more smooth and predictable climbing adventure.
 
Keep in mind, that I didn't say that your small diameter rope wouldn't work. It is just that seemingly insignificant changes can alter a performance aspect leaving you scratching your head, wondering why.
 
Tuebor said:
Not to mention it sounds like a rock climbing rope (Mammut) which might be too stretchy.
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My Mammut rope is a dynamic rope, I believe. I think that is the correct term. This "stretchyness" has never bothered me. It just takes a little while to fully load up the rope with your weight at the beginning of a long (for me) ascent. I don't think I've yet had to climb much more than 70 feet or so to get to my first set of branches upon which to stand. Once there, the rope is effectively shortened.

I guess since our climbing harnesses are not "fall arrest" harnesses, I like the idea that a significant portion of the forces that might result from an inadvertant fall will be absorbed by the climbing line, and not my back, quite so much.

Another area in which having a dynamic rope could be helpful is in the possible prevention of breakout of a tie-in point, due to the sudden and extreme increase in force that might occur due to an unexpected fall. With a dynamic rope, a lot of the energy of the fall will be dissipated by the stretching of the rope, and therefore not make it all the way up to the tie-in point, or primary suspension point, if you prefer. This energy absorption could prevent a climber from going on a second, and more serious fall.

Once I'm all the way up into the canopy, the "stretchyness" is barely noticable to me.

I guess in the future, though, I'll stick to more conventional choices, just because I'll be looking for a good, all-around rope that will work well with both hitch-based climbing systems as well as the fully mechanical ones.

Thanks for your interest and comments, and for helping to keep this thread alive.

Like I keep saying, (and maybe it is just me that feels this way) I think that this topic is so important, especially for newer climbers, that I feel it should be made into a "sticky" thread that remains near the top of this section of the forum. Otherwise it will be continually buried, until it disappears completely. I guess I need to write a PM to the moderators for such a request.

Thanks again.

Tim
 
oceans said:
@TimBr, not sure if it's been mentioned in this thread, so I'll add it due to relevance...if you can build the habit of climbing 6" to 1' higher than you need to, this can allow you to engage the Rope Wrench as the hitch engages. This creates the effect of a contained DdRT system in which the hitch only sees a fraction of your weight.

Conversely, if you hang on your hitch while the Rope Wrench is disengaged, the hitch will obviously see 100% of your weight.

This subtle habit, along with a few others I'm sure, can make for a much more smooth and predictable climbing adventure.
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Oceans, thanks for this tip. I guess I always thought that the idea of the "stiff tether" was that it would somewhat automatically engage whenever you sat back into the Rope Wrench and hitch combo.

Your idea, if I'm understanding it correctly, is to climb just a bit higher than you really need to be sitting in the end, in order to allow the Rope Wrench to go from its "fully up" and "neutral" position, to "fully down" and "engaged" position. This makes good sense to me, to develop the habit so that you always end up at the elevation you want to be at with the Rope Wrench fully engaged.

Another climber somewhere along the way mentioned that he likes to "bump" the hitch, I think a little bit and repeatedly, as the Rope Wrench is in the process of going from its "neutral" and "fully up" position to its "engaged" and "fully down" position. I think this allows the Rope Wrench to fully engage while at the same time preventing the hitch from getting too tight, really early in the setup for a descent.

Oh, and one more thing, related to the function of the forum. When you used the "@" symbol in combination with my name, at the beginning of the post, it triggered an "Alert" to me that I had been "mentioned" by you. This is the first time I've received such an alert, so I appreciate you teaching me this lesson, also. I guess when you do not wish to quote someone's post, just so that they can receive a notification of a change to a thread they're involved in, using the "@" symbol and the person's screen name will produce the same result, and save space, also. It also lets everyone know who your comment is directed to, to avoid misunderstandings.

Thanks again for all of your input.

Tim
 
DSMc said:
Keep in mind, that I didn't say that your small diameter rope wouldn't work. It is just that seemingly insignificant changes can alter a performance aspect leaving you scratching your head, wondering why.
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Great point, thanks for this. This has happened to me, so I value what you are saying.

Thanks again.

Tim
 
@treebing, Hey, Kevin! I think it was Tom Dunlap who made this thread a sticky at my request. I think I expressed my reasons in this post on page two of this thread.

http://www.treebuzz.com/forum/threa...pe-wrench-on-descent.32350/page-2#post-465919

My reason for wanting the thread to be made into a sticky was that in about three or four years of my reading on multiple arborist forums, I had never seen this issue discussed in a really focused way the way it has been in this thread.

I thought that this thread, which was started by moss (thanks again, @moss!) was too important to have it get progressively buried ever deeper as time goes on.

Hitch function, for those climbers that have not made the switch to fully mechanical devices, is absolutely critical in order for a climber to be effective and comfortable in the tree. Not only that, but the failure of a hitch to function properly without binding up could also be life threatening, in a situation in which a climber needs to bomb out of a tree to escape some hazard.

You've probably been climbing most of your adult life, and had the opportunity to share ideas and techniques in the field with other veteran climbers. This thread is for the many climbers, like myself, who have no such access.

I've learned a lot from this thread; things I've never before seen mentioned elsewhere. I just wanted to keep it easy to find and be added to, for the benefit of others like myself who may never have seen these methods discussed before.

Bottom line, I just feel that it is of critical importance, and I thank Tom again for making it into a "sticky" thread. I guess if enough other forum members find it objectionable, he can reverse his decision.

Thanks for listening.

Tim

@treebing, P.S. This thread is not intended as a knock on the Rope Wrench, just to be clear. This whole thread got started as a result of the tribute paid to the Rope Wrench in this thread:

http://www.treebuzz.com/forum/threads/rope-wrench-without-incident.32334/

After reading what Reg Coates wrote in this thread about how trustworthy and reliable the Rope Wrench is, and also how well his hitches perform during use with the Rope Wrench, I realized that my issues with hitch performance were due to my own ignorance, and not any fault of the Rope Wrench. The same issues exist with any hitch-based SRT device, I believe.

I know the title of the thread might be irritating, as it seems to single out the Rope Wrench. In fact, this whole thread got started as a result of the high praise heaped on the Rope Wrench by one of the finest climbers out there. (Apologies, Reg. I know how humble you are; it just had to be said.)

That is all.
 
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This is a great topic, I am heading to the garage to try a knut. One thing I have noticed in my limited climbing is that the weather makes a big difference in how my hitch acts. I started using 10 mm armor prus on Blue Moon rope and that helped a lot. I noticed in very dry conditions it sometimes tends to drift a little, but 8mm does not. On the other hand in very dry conditions 8 mm seems to bite pretty hard and bind.
 
@Darrell R, Hey, Darrell, please forgive my confusion regarding your previous post. In your last sentence, did you mean to say that your 8mm hitch cord binds up in wet conditions, instead of in dry conditions?

The previous sentence seems to say the 8mm hitch cord performed well on Blue Moon in dry conditions, if I'm reading you right.

Thanks for your time. Also, I do like the Knut hitch.

Tim
 
You are correct Tim thanks for catching that. I was so excited about going out to the garage and trying a new friction hitch that I got myself confused. I am going to eat a little lunch and head to the tree and try the Knut in real life action.
 
FMecky said:
This is a lil off topic but im getting a wrench this week and I am wondering what length hitch cord I should run?
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Get 2. A 28" and a 30". It won't break the bank and you'll be able to try several different hitches and number of wraps to find your magic combo. You can always find something to do with the one you don't choose to climb with. I'd go 10mm, too.
 
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