A few rigging questions. Broken rope.

That rope looks well used as well. Degraded ropes loose a lot of strength, that's why we operate at around 10% mbs. It sounds like there were a lot of little things adding up to one big failure. Degraded ropes, improper binder termination, excessive loading by your operator, and potentially, as you mentioned, a compromised section in the rope. I've seen excessively loaded ropes melt due to stress from pulling. I try to stay away from using mechanical to pull things over if it. Has the potential to eclipse my ropes mbs. A rope winch may have helped, though it's slower. I've not seen a heavily loaded alpine butterfly run much before, but I wonder if the stretch in the rope made a weak spot? So many variables. How bad was the lean to warrant that much pull to attempt to pull it over? Was complacency an issue? How much weight was in the lean of the tree, i.e what physics were needed to get it over center? Did you send the TIP high enough to compensate for the weight? Did you have enough length to better the pull angle? Soooo many unknowns...
 
My preferred method is to attach a port o wrap and use that as a tie off. I just wrap it until there's no room left then give it a couple cleat hitches to lock it in. My alternative method is Maasdam rope puller, for attachment to the the puller... Im gonna catch some hate for this. I spliced a split tail of 1/2" tenex-tec and tie it to the rope with a blake's hitch. I put an alpine butterfly about 6" behind it just to show me if its slipping while pulling. (never has). Preferred rope is courant maona.
 
The reason I asked for a sketch is that alpine/biner to rope has a biner to rope contact - but your glazed section looks to be maybe 8" long and to get that skidding via rope stretch from the short bit of rope around the spar circumference is nigh on impossible. 1" skid, maybe. Could 7 more inches pull through the alpine? probably not. So the question is how did that 8" (?) long section get glazed, during this eff up or prior to it? Was it tight cinched or like a triangle?

Nothing wrong with this cinch method SRT, never achieve the high skidding energy level.
 
Messed up before or triangle…possible. Arbor Plex 3-4.2% elongation. It probably slipped and it was tied right below a branch union. I don’t think we’re going to come to answer of what happened. I appreciate all the suggestions to mitigate this situation again. Thanks
 
For fun look up rope/knot pull testing videos. Under extreme loading rope in a knot can migrate, but a pretty short distance. If your cinch was significantly a triangle, the biner could skid down the rope de-triangleing as the cinch tightened and that could have generated the longer glaze section we seem to see. And the instant heat strength reduction rope failure. So don't leave skiddable/sliding slack that can move when loaded. At a tight contact point.

Except on a bollard but that's it's own magic.... or on rigging rings, again sort of magic (they push bend radius and load boundaries)
 
Ok I will say it fuck that bungee arborplex junk. It is 2023 with loads of offerings. Just get a hank of yale double esterlon 9/16. It can do it all. Well just about....I would use 3 strand treemaster over that crap. Screw a steel biner and alpine. Keep it simple with a plain old dressed bowline ckoked sweetly on the tree. Do not know what tractor had to connect to, I again always use a bowline on a bight. It will always break after loading. No sharp edges please, and thank you. Think I have broken some old 1/2 short pieces fucking around some very heavy trunk wood with an excavator and bucker teeth, silly really as I just ended up using the damn bucket. Brain fart one hot ass day.
 
Simpleiowaguy said:
My preferred method is to attach a port o wrap and use that as a tie off. I just wrap it until there's no room left then give it a couple cleat hitches to lock it in. My alternative method is Maasdam rope puller, for attachment to the the puller... Im gonna catch some hate for this. I spliced a split tail of 1/2" tenex-tec and tie it to the rope with a blake's hitch. I put an alpine butterfly about 6" behind it just to show me if its slipping while pulling. (never has). Preferred rope is courant maona.
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No hate, this is legit for big pulls.. Not really sure of the effectiveness of this tattle tail or 'fuse', as I have welded the prussic to the pull line without it slipping. My best guess is rope stretch under friction did it, and not slipping.
 
@evo Was it a tenex or otherwise polyester prusik? I have had that happen as well, but not with a technora covered rope.
 
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Matias said:
@evo Was it a tenex or otherwise polyester prusik? I have had that happen as well, but not with a technora covered rope.
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It’s been so long ago that I can’t tell you. But it was using a 3:1 being pulled with a 5:1. I want to say it was a loop made with 1/2 stable braid, so poly on poly.
Dissimilar materials to the extent of technora and poly wouldn’t ever weld together. Other damage and glazing sure! But certainly not welding.
 
evo said:
It’s been so long ago that I can’t tell you. But it was using a 3:1 being pulled with a 5:1. I want to say it was a loop made with 1/2 stable braid, so poly on poly.
Dissimilar materials to the extent of technora and poly wouldn’t ever weld together. Other damage and glazing sure! But certainly not welding.
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That's interesting. Would nylon/polyamide not weld to polyester under heavy loading?
 
Matias said:
That's interesting. Would nylon/polyamide not weld to polyester under heavy loading?
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Originally you were talking about technora. Vastly different materials.
As far as polyester and nylon, I can tell you they don’t stick well together from flame whipping the ends of mixed lines. They will stick for sure but the bond isn’t the strongest.
 
Tensionless hitches are basically full strength, compared to a running bowline at around 60%.

A bollard/ POw is basically a tensionless hitch at the other end.

Steady pressure, without "help" from yanking is key.


Setting up a hinge properly, stood up on wedges, then pulling is my common approach.

I'll pretension a backleaner, sometimes.




I like a light test-pull before cutting. Helps the ground worker check traction and take out slack and a bit of stretch from the rigging.
 
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southsoundtree said:
Tensionless hitches are basically full strength, compared to a running bowline at around 60%.

A bollard/ POw is basically a tensionless hitch at the other end.

Steady pressure, without "help" from yanking is key.


Setting up a hinge properly, stood up on wedges, then pulling is my common approach.

I'll pretension a backleaner, sometimes.




I like a light test pull before cutting. Helps the ground worker check traction and take out slack and a bit of stretch from the rigging.
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Oh yeah, test pulls are necessary.
Give everyone a feel of the ball to using sporting terminology.
 
Need to be more specific than "it broke at the tree" ...
was it at the knot?
or near the carabiner where the rope contacts the biner?
 
Mowerr said:
Need to be more specific than "it broke at the tree" ...
was it at the knot?
or near the carabiner where the rope contacts the biner?
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See post 15 photo. No. The alpine knot at tree was intact, and it was easily untied. The discussion here has led me to believe that the rope was melted when the carabiner rode up on the tip and slipped through. I didn't take a photo of it on the tree but, I 'think" slipped up over the broken branch union onto the smaller branch above.
 
I found some different ropes on sale this week, one being Samson Stable Braid. If I use the double braid rope type, then I guess I'll need something different than natural crotch or my slings with steel carabiners. If so, what should I start my rigging collection with? Block or some sort of ring? Rigging stuff is expensive and I only do this occasionally. Craig
 
ClimbingTN said:
I found some different ropes on sale this week, one being Samson Stable Braid. If I use the double braid rope type, then I guess I'll need something different than natural crotch or my slings with steel carabiners. If so, what should I start my rigging collection with? Block or some sort of ring? Rigging stuff is expensive and I only do this occasionally. Craig
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Rings and hollowbraid. Make a pocket sling, and it should all cost less than $100
 
ClimbingTN said:
I found some different ropes on sale this week, one being Samson Stable Braid. If I use the double braid rope type, then I guess I'll need something different than natural crotch or my slings with steel carabiners. If so, what should I start my rigging collection with? Block or some sort of ring? Rigging stuff is expensive and I only do this occasionally. Craig
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Get a 5/8th block. Cmi if budget, or ISC if splurging. 5/8th ISC small is all you will ever need I believe. Pick up a 8ft and 10ft deadeye with 2 pinto rigs. They can handle all the brush you can throw at them plus perfect to act as redirects for the block. Good to go. Let me know how you get on......
 
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