Complacency

[markra]

"I deleted my post to be nice but now I wish I wouldn't have.", "AM SHAKING?

I know its not a skydiving forum sherlock, no kidding,

but the thread was about complacency effects all pursuits not just tree work. It's human psychology.

Skydiving is where I come from and what I know, to say I should just shut up and have nothing to offer becuase I haven't been swinging from the trees for , "what was it 43 years Rico?" is ridiculous.

Is this the Tree Swingers men's club?. Members only

I thought everyone can have an opinion.

 

[rico]

Yes I know it is just a movie and It's humorous to see Rico's reaction. He obviously understood the dig, just as I understood his Matt Foley Digg.

However the Humility is what I have been pushing more than fear. Am not scared of a little fear but am vary scared of loosing Humility

"I deleted my post to be nice but now I wish I wouldn't have.", "AM SHAKING?

I know its not a skydiving forum sherlock, no kidding,

but the thread was about complacency effects all pursuits not just tree work. It's human psychology.

Skydiving is where I come from and what I know, to say I should just shut up and have nothing to offer becuase I haven't been swinging from the trees for , "what was it 43 years Rico?" is ridiculous.

Is this the Tree Swingers men's club?. Members only

I thought everyone can have an opinion.

Is this nothing more than a harmless man crush, or should I be worried about something a little more sinister....

 

[Treetopflyer]

 

[markra]

thank you for this video really hit a spot with me. This is the kinda stuff I am looking for. Have been watching his other videos. This guy really does the business.

The chainsaw porn is out there.

He would laugh at my saw, a small handsaw , never been good with a chainsaw so will have no business taking one up into the tree.

I guess I better build myself a porta-edge cause I am gonna be up there a long time.

Cheers

 

[markra]

I hate to be the one to point out the obvious, but you are living proof that this is a false premise.

You have admitted multiple times that you were "never comfortable", and were instead operating in a state of fear. How the fuck did you managed to damn near kill yourself? What was it that caused you to take an unnecessary risk, miss a hidden danger, cut a corner, or become complacent? It certainly wasn't comfort, or confidence in your skillset....

Staying safe isn't about a "macho shtick", being "a real man", or being a "wus". Its about always being extremely detail oriented, and slowly/methodically going through all the potential dangers that may arise from any given scenario...Call me fucking crazy, but I would much rather go through that process with a calm, clear, and respectful mind, than with a mind swimming in fear and cortisol.

on re- reading and considering what you have written I agree with you a 100% on these points

"staying safe...... about always being extremely detail orientated, and slowly /methodically going through the potential dangers that may arise from a give scenario...... I would much rather go through that process with calm, clear and respectful mind,........ - see I do agree with you on more than you may think, just your delivery that puts me off a bit.

I think the key misunderstandings come from the level of fear, I believe a dose of it is ok(even advantageous) "IF" and it's a big "IF" it motivates you to respect what you are doing and not cut corners etc, or rush you are doing, follow procedures etc,

and I agree as you put it that "a mind swimming in fear and cortisol" is dangerous and can freeze you up from taking the correct actions. That's where the level of fear is overpowering has taken over and is of no benefit but destructive

Anyway I can see we have winding each other up and misunderstanding where each is coming from, any will leave it at that.

 

[DSMc]

...
I think the key misunderstandings come from the level of fear,... I agree as you put it that "a mind swimming in fear and cortisol" is dangerous and can freeze you up from taking the correct actions. That's where the level of fear is overpowering has taken over and is of no benefit but destructive...

It is not a misunderstanding as much as it is a misuse of the word 'fear', and what I personally have a problem with. When you take away the physiological changes produced by fear, it is no longer in fact fear, but becomes something much more useful, 'cautionary thought'.

People have a strong tendency to 'lump' both words and ideas into tidy little, all inclusive packages. Life is just not like that.

 

[rico]

August's rap about falling out of a tree reminded me of the circumstances concerning my own accident. As such I think we would be remise to not mention just how dangerous the mindset and actions of others can be to our own safety. This interaction/partnership goes both ways (climber/groundie & groundie/climber), but we as climbers need to at be acutely aware of this relationship because we can be particularly venerable/exposed when aloft.

I myself do everything I can to NOT put my groundies in a position where a mistake on their part can have a profound effect on my health and safety. Whether it be never allowing anyone but myself to tie my basal anchor, or taking the time to take that log in 2 pieces instead of 1, the extra work is always worth the effort. Obviously this relationship is going to change depending on the quality of the climber and the quality of the ground support, but there are almost always things we can do to skew this relationship in our favor, and put as much responsibility on staying safe in our own hands.

If we as competent climbers want to stay safe for the duration of our careers we must bring a proper mindset to the job site each and every time we saddle up. If we are not feeling it on a given day we need to put our ego aside and call it a day, or have someone else climb that day. IMHO one part of that mindset is doing what is necessary to place as much responsibility for our own safety in our own hands (obviously input from the crew is alway encouraged and appreciated).

 

[owScott]

August's rap about falling out of a tree reminded me of the circumstances concerning my own accident. As such I think we would be remise to not mention just how dangerous the mindset and actions of others can be to our own safety. This interaction/partnership goes both ways (climber/groundie & groundie/climber), but we as climbers need to at be acutely aware of this relationship because we can be particularly venerable/exposed when aloft.

I myself do everything I can to NOT put my groundies in a position where a mistake on their part can have a profound effect on my health and safety. Whether it be never allowing anyone but myself to tie my basal anchor, or taking the time to take that log in 2 pieces instead of 1, the extra work is always worth the effort. Obviously this relationship is going to change depending on the quality of the climber and the quality of the ground support, but there are almost always things we can do to skew this relationship in our favor, and put as much responsibility on staying safe in our own hands.

If we as competent climbers want to stay safe for the duration of our careers we must bring a proper mindset to the job site each and every time we saddle up. If we are not feeling it on a given day we need to put our ego aside and call it a day, or have someone else climb that day. IMHO one part of that mindset is doing what is necessary to place as much responsibility for our own safety in our own hands (obviously input from the crew is alway encouraged and appreciated).

Well put. I also tell people not to handle my climbing gear, thats my responsblity. That may seem anal but the point here is I am responsible for my safety in every step of the process from when the harness comes off the truck until it goes back on the truck.

 

[islandarb]

Well put. I also tell people not to handle my climbing gear, thats my responsblity. That may seem anal but the point here is I am responsible for my safety in every step of the process from when the harness comes off the truck until it goes back on the truck.

OW dat is very true. No one touches my gear ever. EDIT... climbing gear I meant.

 

[rico]

Same here. no one, including my wife, touches my climbing gear..Non climbers think we are a bunch of wingnutz, but its our lives on the line every time we saddle up.

 

[markra]

It is not a misunderstanding as much as it is a misuse of the word 'fear', and what I personally have a problem with. When you take away the physiological changes produced by fear, it is no longer in fact fear, but becomes something much more useful, 'cautionary thought'.

People have a strong tendency to 'lump' both words and ideas into tidy little, all inclusive packages. Life is just not like that.

understand and agree with your points totally.

your point on the "misuse" of the word fear is not necessarily because of misuse, words can have different connotations and use by people due to their lexical range and based on individual understandings and experiences.

One of the older meanings of fear is "reverence", often used in a religious context. ie. I don't take something as "given" or be "too familiar" or "casual"

How I might use the word "fear" in this context and the feelings it generates for me may be the feelings you may call respect.

Found this same problem when trying to translate one language into another choosing the "correct" lexical meaning when there are a range of lexxcal meanings and choosing the "correct" word from the object language which also has a semantic range.

I know from training students previously of the need to be very careful of the effect a word may have, as it may evoke different feelings and meanings in different people.

Hence I think one of the reasons we have so much conflict in this world.

Misunderstanding, even when we are using the same words.

 

[markra]

Same here. no one, including my wife, touches my climbing gear..Non climbers think we are a bunch of wingnutz, but its our lives on the line every time we saddle up.

no one touches my gear, that especially applies "to my wife". She will put it away where I can't find it anymore.

 

[rico]

no one touches my gear, that especially applies "to my wife". She will put it away where I can't find it anymore.

I believe we just found common ground markra

 

[markra]

Well put. I also tell people not to handle my climbing gear, thats my responsblity. That may seem anal but the point here is I am responsible for my safety in every step of the process from when the harness comes off the truck until it goes back on the truck.

totally understand, I get ya.

however over my jump career quite often I had to trust others to pack my chute and me deal with the consequences, my reserve was never packed by me but by an FAA rigger. I'm not trained anyway and wouldn't trust myself. The substandard planes and the trainee pilots, again they would do a better job than me anyway.

When I reflect no wonder I felt "fear". But am still here. Mind you I know a guy I went to jump school with who killed a guy by packing a malfunction on his reserve chute.

But on a serious note, I guess if I didn't trust a member of the crew, I would ask if they should even be there. What do you reckon?

We did often get others to work as ground crew and look after critical steps but I always did a pre-flight before going up and jumping it as I couldn't work otherwise. ie, parahute being packed while jumping the other.

However the discipline I come from is of the military, heavily regulated , strictly managed .ie you don't get to do gear checks or pack parachutes unless you are "qualified" to.

I don't know, does the Tree industry have regulation around ground crew or other roles, if not should it? , any ideas?

 

[KristinL]

Great point. It does seem like the mental aspect can be pushed aside too often.

 

[climbingmonkey24]

I don't know, does the Tree industry have regulation around ground crew or other roles, if not should it? , any ideas?

Every company is different in the way they operate. With some companies, the newer guy's stay away from machines and equipment as well as rigging and are more laborers as they watch the more experienced and learn how things work, and then slowly they start using power tools and machines under the supervision of the more experienced, etc.

For me as an owner, I have one other crew member that works with me. We are a two man crew focusing mainly on pruning. As of now he does not use the chainsaws or operate the chipper, his task is to move brush from Point A to point B, help with cleanup, and work the ropes when doing rigging as well as move equipment from the dump trailer to where we are working on the jobsite and back again, etc. Basically assist me as I lead the operation.

He has never used a chainsaw before, but at some point I may teach him how to use the saws and other equipment, and I've already had him feed the chipper a couple times, but I'm very particular about that because when you start using chainsaws and chippers, etc. people can get hurt or worse if they don't know what they are doing. They can also damage the equipment.

As it happens, part of the reason I haven't rushed to have him operate the equipment by himself is that given we are just a two man crew there hasn't really been any need for my worker to operate the equipment because I'm there operating it.

He's good though, pays attention to detail, is safe, and I don't think there would be any problems with him using the saws or chipper without my supervision. All in due time though.

 

[Brando CalPankian]

I believe this is in reference to Mr Shultz's vid. I understand his choice to power through and get the job done, but its not something I would do. I myself would have gotten the right rope or walked. Thanks, but I'll pass on side-loading a spar with big wood because you and/or the outfit your are working for neglected to bring the proper lowering line. This is why I run 300 ft, 400 ft, or 600 ft lowering lines.. Fuck coming up an inch short.

Hell yes

 

[Brando CalPankian]

Couldn't ha e said it better myself. The 4 quadrants of understanding are a must, for more than just tree work. Completely revolutionized my view of the world.

I think that there is a bit of confusion with terminology in this thread. Though complacency and competency sound similar, they are very different.

There are four stages of learning a complex skill. Unconscious incompetence, conscious incompetence, conscious competence, and finally unconscious competence.

Unconscious incompetence is the greenie who thinks they are great but actually have no knowledge or understanding of what they are doing.

Conscious incompetence is reached when you realize how much you don't know and have not yet mastered any technical skills.

Conscious competence is reached when your knowledge and skills have combined enough that you are very good at what you do but all tasks demand your full attention.

Unconscious competence, is a master craftsman that not only has the knowledge and skills needed but can, at the same time, free up a part of their mental awareness to allow progressive actions.

It is very possible to work within a dangerous activity without fear 'and' without complacency.