Christrees
Been here a while
- Location
- New York
Ha ha funny way of saying it. Nothing else is funny about it tho. I get it. Thats how i feel about the hybrids that still incorporate hitches. Its got that familiarity to it.
Rope Runner Critical Incident Report August 2020
- Thread starter normer
- Start date
It is on TreeStuff now.
Chris Schultz
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Minturn
Good thing you had gloves on! Operable legs and intact spines are good things. If this happened in August, why are you going public with it now?
JeffGu
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Osceola, Nebraska
I can certainly understand your concern. A lot of at-height devices are engineered to make it as difficult as possible for the device to be installed improperly, and many will lock onto the rope if you do install it onto the rope incorrectly. In the arb world, some things are a bit more sketchy, probably because we love that fast innovation and new things coming to the market quickly. Attention to detail is paramount.
Glad you weren't injured.
Glad you weren't injured.
I think it is because we intrinsically have to switch from ascending to descending so much. The best devices for that application are also the most likely to drop us on our ass. The other rope access disciplines are more unidirectional.
treebing
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Detroit, Mi.
Thannks for sharing Normer, i had an incident a few years ago with the original runner, where i set the runner up, went to get my gloves. ascended up to the first branch, when i went to lean back i realized i had not secured the bird. thankfully, i noticed. I think that you are right that we need to revise the warnings to include stronger language regarding this. The RR can look from a glance to be all together, but not actually be. Again, thank you for sharing.
rbreesems
New member
Sorry Normer, that was a close one. Glad that you are ok. When I moved to an all-mechanical a few years back with the Bulldog bone, I started using a thimble prussic above it that is attached to my second bridge via a webbing loop. I did this because I don't trust myself to be 100.00000% correct in usage all of the time. It did save me one time when I was careless starting a descent in a jumble of branches, and somehow a lanyard rope got snagged over the top of the BDB causing it to collapse right before I descended -- the thimble prussic caught me. I know that according to the warnings you are not supposed to have something above the descender, but I have learned how to manage it ok. I have recently started using the RRPro and do the same with it. This is my approach to managing the risk of myself not being perfect all of the time, not for everyone -- just my two cents.
It is not that I don't trust the descender ---- I don't trust myself.
It is not that I don't trust the descender ---- I don't trust myself.
Attachments
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rope-a-dope
Branched out member
- Location
- Asheville
Oouughoh. I just caught a whiff of something...
Like...the stench of stubborn debate about mandating 2 climbing systems, but hiding underneath a tart, pungent discussion of manufacturing and design standards of climbing devices.
My serious comment:
I like both safety minded gear design and redundant fall protections.
I climb on an akimbo most often and have gotten quite comfortable trusting it. Do I trust it too much, or my muscle memory? Maybe I do, but there are parts of my climbing process to find issues before and during.
I dont climb regularly with a backup system, but when I have it always makes me feel more secure.
Like...the stench of stubborn debate about mandating 2 climbing systems, but hiding underneath a tart, pungent discussion of manufacturing and design standards of climbing devices.
My serious comment:
I like both safety minded gear design and redundant fall protections.
I climb on an akimbo most often and have gotten quite comfortable trusting it. Do I trust it too much, or my muscle memory? Maybe I do, but there are parts of my climbing process to find issues before and during.
I dont climb regularly with a backup system, but when I have it always makes me feel more secure.
That's if you even did click it though
Christrees
Been here a while
- Location
- New York
Man. My first thought would be...damn im glad your ok. And here to tell us your story.!
Obviously I'm glad another climber isn't hurt. But this is a pretty demonizing post of the RRP when it seems like the only way for this to happen is for improper installation.
The post that I was replying to was referencing someone saying that they don't expect their seatbelt to save them if they don't wear it. By saying that he expects it to work when you click it makes it seem like it was properly installed and then failed on him. Given the design of the RRP, it just doesn't seem possible that it was installed correctly and then had both lower slik-pins just randomly pop out.
I'm not saying I wish he got hurt, I'm just saying that the argument is pretty misleading and feels like yet another Notch witch-hunt.
Christrees
Been here a while
- Location
- New York
Oh alright good. I was like what!! But yeah i get it. Idk if he had it installed right. And it failed. (Which i think is possible) may not happen alot but idk. I think it could. Or if he had it installed incorrectly. Which can also happen alot more. Im just glad hes ok. And he straightened everything out with treestuff. I think he said
ghostice
Been here a while
I've said this many times before - maybe consider backing up with a munter on an RE Priate hooked into your right leg loop. When I'm working I don't bomb the tree, as fun as it is. Once you get the muscle memory the munter doesn't even take 10 sec to set up and it's saved me more than once with iced ropes and with sap jammed up prussiks. In the mountains, more people are killed descending than any other phase of a climb. Rapping is huge fun . . . till it's not.
timmysaint
New member
- Location
- Ontario
Just started climbing on two ropes this Fall- two completely independent systems. Depending on the tree at the least I use an MRS (ZigZag or Hitch Climber) with an ASAP- or an SRS/SRS or SRS/MRS when the canopy is wide or tricky, no central leader...etc.
Makes me feel better. Come from an ice climbing background where I always used double ropes. Lost a good friend a year ago rappelling rock. He never tied auto-blocks (redundancy) and took a 30m fall on his head because his ATC wasn't threaded right.
Redundancy, and he'd be alive today.
A couple near-misses over 15 years of near daily climbing has convinced me that redundancy in climbing system, TIP ...etc is better insurance that I'll see my little guys at the end of the day.
A few months in and I don't find I'm much slower than before. Sure, slower, but not much. Still making $$$ on jobs. Feel a Heck of a lot safer doing it.
Whether operator error or manufacturers defect, if you rely on one system, failure is failure and dead is dead.
Makes me feel better. Come from an ice climbing background where I always used double ropes. Lost a good friend a year ago rappelling rock. He never tied auto-blocks (redundancy) and took a 30m fall on his head because his ATC wasn't threaded right.
Redundancy, and he'd be alive today.
A couple near-misses over 15 years of near daily climbing has convinced me that redundancy in climbing system, TIP ...etc is better insurance that I'll see my little guys at the end of the day.
A few months in and I don't find I'm much slower than before. Sure, slower, but not much. Still making $$$ on jobs. Feel a Heck of a lot safer doing it.
Whether operator error or manufacturers defect, if you rely on one system, failure is failure and dead is dead.
ghostice
Been here a while
Am so so sorry to hear about your friend.
Comin down on iced up doubles the guys I climb ice with use a Shunt, ATC and again my trusty munter/ biner on a leg loop to strip glop. Up top we never come down off just one Abalakov (we leave a lot of tat up top), and never off one tree if there’s wood handy. If ice is flooding on the way down, we’ve sometimes come down on rock on the side of a climb but not often - Rockies here are crappy rock. Same perspective in trees - maybe not two climb lines but always a climbing lanyard or two lanyards, and climb (safety) line. Stay safe out there.
timmysaint
New member
- Location
- Ontario
Coming off iced up double lines on a Reverso. Too fast! Miss the ghost, brother- truck stucks and cold camping.
We were pretty irresponsible in some ways- never thought much about redundancy and wished I had my tree work experience and understanding of rope systems. Shoot- had I had kids then I might have stepped it down.
Good too see you're climbing safe. Accidents in Mountaineering is still one of my go to reads. Threading another vthread and leaving a bit of tat is small effort for big insurance. Smart.
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ghostice
Been here a while
I was so so lucky to start climbing with the likes of Frank Campbell and other ice pioneers up here. It’s great you’ve been in there - place has really changed since the big flood five or so years ago tho. Sketchy ice and sketchy trees both keep the game interesting. Game on
(Have friends in AINAM - the toe of Aberdeen Glacier - descending)
- Location
- Plymouth County
I've been thinking about setting up like this, but haven't tried it yet. Any issues with too much fiction? How often does it cause more hassle than is practical?
Stumpsprouts
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Asheville
Also very curious, and would like to have a picture of how this connects to your second bridge, when ya get the chance.
rbreesems
New member
The bridge2 pic shows the set up, you can see the 2nd bridge in bottom of the pic. I consider the thimble prussic+2nd bridge as backup to descender+first bridge. I use a roll-N-lock to length adjust the first bridge, which is why it looks shorter than bridge2 -- bridge1 is shortened in this pic. The descent photo shows how I release the descender, the fingers on top of the thimble prussic causes it slide down during the descent. To be honest, I only recently switched to the RRPro from my BullDog Bone and the fact that the RRPro horn faces you instead of facing away like the BDB makes this hand positioning more uncomfortable, tougher. Was simple to do with the BDB, still getting comfortable with it for the RRPro.
On ascent, I either keep a hand on the prussic and push it up as I ascent, or I sometimes just let the descender push it up (does not always work as well as the prussic can bind sometimes). I do not find friction on either descent or ascent to be a problem.
In terms of being too much trouble, that is a personal decision. For me, I am used to it now and do not give it a second thought - been using this for at least three years. Also, I am not an arborist, only do cat rescue, so my climbing requirements may be simpler.
