UK. Two ropes at all times(USA next?)

[JeffGu]

I would organize nationwide protests to protect our right not to wear pants while climbing. The helmet is a good idea, though.

 

[SomethingWitty]

I get it snagged on things often enough for my taste with pants on.

 

[SomethingWitty]

Hi all, New member here. I obtained an IRATA level 1 before I started doing tree work. A big take away from the class is the curriculum for IRATA and SPRAT seems to be geared toward training trades people to do rope maneuvers. I think this is a big player in the second rope. Its the safest possible universal system and a really good one. Im curious to see how this will play out in the tree world. If we are going to standardize do you guys think a better trade wide push would be just to get everybody in a helmet and a pair of saw pants?

There are many moves that our industry could take that would save more lives than a mandatory second rope. I already use one more rope than a lot of guys on a daily.

 

[ghostice]

I would organize nationwide protests to protect our right not to wear pants while climbing. The helmet is a good idea, though.

I can't climb while not wearing pants - when you go past squirrels, their tails tickle - there's nothing worse in a tree than tail tickle. You'd hate it.
Are we getting sidetracked?

 

[SomethingWitty]

They are hot sometimes... not even **less chaps? can you cuss on here ? Theres a pretty big gap in standards in this industry is all. For example we are discussing the pros and cons of two ropes while there are crews out there that don't get basic saw handling training or a safety culture is chastised as non productive or stupid. They don't have the option to not wear pants or chaps because they don't know

We're all adults. Fairly tasteful profanity is let slide pretty often. Stay away from racial slurs, though. Tom is not fond of them, even when they're funny.

 

[JeffGu]

And, avoid embedding pictures of mechanical devices. Tom deletes my very best mechanical device pictures. Also, pictures with a lot of interesting knots and naked college girls. He has deleted most of my collection of these historically significant and visually appealing pictures.

 

[CloggerPete]

Agreed, but I see here an imposition by the safety regulation on doubling up ropes in case one fails. So my statement was on the limited case of rope failure due defect

The cutting argument is thin. If you can cut one, you can cut two (and the probability of cutting/damaging two is likely fairly high since I haven’t seen too many cutters cut below their bridge/waist height...)

And justifying two ropes to prevent a slide down the trunk? Pretty sloppy to get an uncontrolled slide down trunk - use a lanyard in crossed configuration if need to stop an uncontrolled slide... and even then when lanyard only sliding down a trunk I have only received a bit of bark rash - hardly justification for two ropes...

Or install a Kevlar rope sleeve prior to cutting is less labour intensive than two ropes throughout the tree, if one really feels like cutting a rope is that probable...

Could I ask out of curiosity about your comment on Kevlar sleeves for lanyards?
Clogger (where I work) are currently working with Brett Huet to develop a chainsaw protective sleeve to go over lanyards for the utilities market in the US/Canada. Is this something that would be used in normal arb work as well?

 

[islandarb]

I think folk should keep a saw from cutting their rope. Really better thing to do.

 

[Reach]

Could I ask out of curiosity about your comment on Kevlar sleeves for lanyards?
Clogger (where I work) are currently working with Brett Huet to develop a chainsaw protective sleeve to go over lanyards for the utilities market in the US/Canada. Is this something that would be used in normal arb work as well?

The problem I see with a sleeve over the lanyard is that it will not go through the lanyard adjuster, which limits how much you can shorten your lanyard. If the sleeve is short enough that is never a problem, it seems to me it would be too short to be of any use either.

 

[CloggerPete]

I think folk should keep a saw from cutting their rope. Really better thing to do.

Hahahaha definitely agree. Not trying to push the product just interested in potential usage scenarios.

 

[CloggerPete]

The problem I see with a sleeve over the lanyard is that it will not go through the lanyard adjuster, which limits how much you can shorten your lanyard. If the sleeve is short enough that is never a problem, it seems to me it would be too short to be of any use either.

Appreciate the feedback, it is similar to what I have heard from a number of Arborists in New Zealand since coming back from TCIA.
Thing is, quite a number of utility arbs at TCIA were getting quite excited about the concept, so am trying to work out the difference in logic from their thinking to everyone else's!

 

[islandarb]

I dislike sleeves on my lanyards. But others do. Especiallly those that do fucking horrible pines in the warm months....lol

 

[Chaplain242]

The problem I see with a sleeve over the lanyard is that it will not go through the lanyard adjuster, which limits how much you can shorten your lanyard. If the sleeve is short enough that is never a problem, it seems to me it would be too short to be of any use either.

Sleeves also can be a disconnect between climbers hand and the lanyard, whether trying to manipulate position by pulling lanyard around trunk, or simply something that interferes with lanyard gripping trunk to hold a position. Then you have contamination issues (sticks, needles, sawdust etc).

I think a protector may be tempting by some instructors in a training environment teaching to cut on a spar so any lethal habits wouldnt be so lethal, but is generally another thing to get in the way and make climbing more inconvenient, and positioning less secure.

Protecting from gum is a valid use but wouldn’t use expensive materials like Kevlar as would need cleaning and or regular replacement.

Also need to prevent ingestion of sleeve into lanyard adjuster, maybe a two piece plate with hole matching lanyard diameter?

 

[Brocky]

I like the idea, I now use a lanyard with a technora cover for some cut protection. It helps prevent small nick damage from a hand saw. Needs to be made so can’t interfere with hitch or mechanical adjuster, maybe midline attachable, and be attachable to the rope so it doesn’t slide down the rope or so the climber can push it up to grab just the rope. A bright, solid color to make it visually different from most climb lines might help from contacting with the rope.
Another thought is to make the sleeve so it performs like the chainsaw resistant chaps, or pants that stop the chain’s rotation.

 

[Burrapeg]

. . . Needs to be made so can’t interfere with hitch or mechanical adjuster, maybe midline attachable. . .

I have been using Richard's (yoyoman's) midline attachable leather cambium savers on my lanyards. Easy on and off, depending on situation, and can quickly swap it over to main line too, for a DdRT move.

 

[JeffGu]

If it's not midline attachable, the ingestion into the adjuster problem is easy to solve with a nylon bushing... I don't like the splices of lanyards/climblines getting slammed into pulleys, multicenders, adjusters, etc. and go out of my way to beef up the protection for the splices on them all (see pic) and use doublewall, adhesive-lined shrink tube to keep the nylon bushing in place.

I took the Dyneema fibers out of a trashed pair of chaps that a friend gave me and have played with the lanyard protector idea. Two sizes of Protec chafe guard with the fibers in between, nylon bushings followed by a rubber grommet (to keep it all in place) and it works.... with some notable caveats. I haven't found a way to make it midline attachable, because using velcro just makes it too inflexible and prone to coming off in the lengths that would be necessary. The other notable problem is choosing a useable length. Trees come in far too many diameters. For utility poles, a suitable length would be easy, but trees.... not so much. Testing my crude prototype with an old Poulan with a fairly dull blade showed that it works, stopped the saw dead. But, destroyed the prototype. I salvaged the fibers out of it and haven't really given it much thought, since.

The chafe guard tends to have memory when "scrunched up" to make it shorter, and doesn't really want to spread back out all the way, again. Something else might work better. Possibly the sheath off of a piece of large rigging doublebraid rope?

Somebody will come up with a better way... I've gone back to just making new lanyards when the current ones get funky. And, being really aware of what will happen if I cut it with sloppy saw work. Really, though... the handsaw seems to be the hardest one to be careful with. It's like your brain doesn't register that it's every bit as sharp as the chainsaw. The chainsaw makes nasty, growling noises to let you know it's a killer... the sneaky handsaw is a silent killer.

 

[Jemco]

Seems like the logical way to stop a spinning chain's to feed enough stringy material fast enough to clog it up in milliseconds.

Anyone who's buzzed Queen palms knows just how quick a quilted clump of butt plate fiber can stop a chainsaw chain in its tracks, demanding disassembly to clear.

So a lanyard sleeve needs an outer layer, that's stuffed with string that can be yanked out in large volume, sufficient to clog an 066, once the outer layer's been breached.

Yu wanna cut somethin mister razor sharp saw?

Here! Cut that!

Jemco

 

[Chaplain242]

I still think ergonomics of a plain lanyard is simpler. I see risks of the sheath getting caught in tight crotches, getting picked, etc. I think to be useful it would be like Yoyomans leather sheath that is used in the one instance then taken off and put on belt in case needed again. The rest of the time would be better to be careful, as it would bring more issues than solve.

 

[JeffGu]

I'm pretty much at that point, myself. Everything I've thought of so far, is really a lot of bother and I've never cut my lanyard... spiked a few climb lines, and nicked myself with a handsaw... but I really watch what I'm doing with the chainsaw.

 

[Chaplain242]

The only accidental cuts I have seen is cutting palm fronds with a chainsaw (which I generally don’t do anyway as I find Silkys have better control by cutting from the back of the frond.

The others are kickback striking the rope (which is mostly caused by lazy technique), and groundys cutting basal ties.

I think this sheath idea actually has more application on a basal tie, but if someone is prepped for this they are using electrical conduit anyway (but a sheath would transport easier...)