No sweat,all good points.As far as the two ropes go ,my hope is our Board Of Tree Experts fights to let the climber make that call according to what their comfortable with.
If it ever becomes an issue over here.In treework that is.
Call to regulation pros/cons...
- Thread starter Chaplain242
- Start date
If it ever becomes an issue over here.In treework that is.
None that im aware of,last I heard focus was on trying to bring people into compliance,of course at some point that is going to shift to handing out some fines,otherwise no one is going to take this seriously.
ATH
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Findlay, Ohio
Not Board of Tree Experts call to make...right?
So if Z133 goes that way, they have no choice. If Z133 doesn't, they can't decide to demand 2 ropes. In theory. I like that model of sticking with a national standard rather than trying to reinvent the wheel...
Just like me on this island. Fuck regulation it sucks. I hate rules. Too much control. I keep things simple. Folk need to have the balls to regulate themselves and do what is right. Rules sometimes only turn people in sheep and pansies....
- Location
- Retired in Minneapolis
True for small, caring companies.
A systems/companies get bigger and more complex there' s a need for rules. When I ran my small company I could assess risk and not put myself in harm's way. When I worked in larger systems I was told to put myself in harm's way. When I explained, with copies of OHsA/ANsI regs, I was considered insubordinate and eventually fired. I'm not the only one who has had this experience either.
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I understand that side of the coin. Thing is once there is greed all the rules in the world will not help. Sad and unfortunate. More should refuse to work for these corporations. They cannot do the work without the everyday climbing/bucket arbs.
Birdyman88
Branched out member
- Location
- Arlington
I talked to a CA from a bigger company at a volunteer event yesterday about Casper's proposal to have a CA on site during cutting. His company has 3 CA's, and the company runs 4 crews. Two CA's are out selling and one does various tasks including visiting sites if there is a need. His opinion was a rule like that would be stupid and burdensome, and they would have to certify 4 more people, or hire them. You know, if you really think about it, and let's take this company as an example, Casper's proposal is sort of indirectly saying, that without a CA babysitting on site, that his well trained foreman and crew are no better than fly-by-night hacks who could kill someone, right?
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Birdyman88
Branched out member
- Location
- Arlington
Casper board moving forward. Why would CA's want to require themselves to be on site?
oilcity.news
Tree accident initiates process to create new Casper rules
CASPER, Wyo. — A Casper man died after a tree felling accident. An individual not certified as an arborist was cutting trees in his yard. The Casper City
oilcity.news
Chaplain242
Branched out member
Anyone know of or could estimate the % increase in rate the Casper mandates would add to the cost on hourly basis? (WC, Liability, Aggregate, Lic, CA on-site all times etc)
Not sure but it would not be too hard to come up with a pretty close estimation and it would be really a worthwile and usefull endevor.Of corse that would have to be weighed against the increase in arborist demand and prices.You see if they pass this ordinance not everyone will be able to do this work.I think most people would agree that not just anyone should be doing this work.Simple low level operator training would call for a markerd out drop zone and crew leader making sure homeowner knew to keep visitors, dogs,children,drunk neighbors ,etc. away.Not fool proof but effective a large percentage of the time.
I ,have gotten pretty lax in marking out my drop zone,after reading this story I think I’ll be more vigilant!
Birdyman88
Branched out member
- Location
- Arlington
We all do from time to time. At least you're honest about it. Just note though, that you're licensed in NJ, so it makes the point that even licensed individuals aren't totally foolproof.
Please don't take this the wrong way, because I've been finding all your info pretty helpful. But when people makes statements like this ^^, as much as I agree, I just have to laugh thinking about some of the silly ways in we filter worthy candidates in this business. @rico had a point in a previous post that ISA pretty much allows a direct route from cutting yards to being "certified" to drop 60,000 lb trees. The only barrier to certification is the test. I used to teach test prep for medical/dental/optical exams for many years on the side, and I can help anyone to score high on a test as long as they're half-way motivated. But the elephant in the room is that when we're cutting and dropping, we're in the construction business, and specifically in demolition. Training in THAT, not yard work, might have saved that mans life. Funny that "construction" and related trades don't show up on ISA's experience list. But, I believe in the ISA mission, and will admit that it raised the bar for the industry. But, that mission is primarily about managing the trees, not necessarily about how to operate a construction site. ISA, like any organization, still allows humans to use their judgement, and I believe experience in construction trades would be extremely useful.
Here's the ISA CA knowledge breakdown:
1. Soil Management—12% 2. Identification and Selection—8% 3. Installation and Establishment—5% 4. Safe Work Practices—15% 5. Tree Biology—8% 6. Pruning—16% 7. Diagnosis and Treatment—12% 8. Urban Forestry—7% 9. Tree Protection—4% 10. Tree Risk Management—13%
Here's ISA's experience paths
• Tree care companies • Nurseries • Landscape companies • Municipalities • State forestry agencies • Utility companies • Academic arboriculture/horticulture departments (for instructors) • Horticulture/extension programs (for advisors) • Consultancies • Pest control providers (for advisors and applicators)
**Now this is from the Wikipedia (yeah, I know) entry for "Demolition", which is a construction trade. It sounds a little like a tree removal, but sounds nothing like cutting yards.
Before any demolition activities can take place, there are many steps that must be carried out beforehand, including performing asbestos abatement, removing hazardous or regulated materials, obtaining necessary permits, submitting necessary notifications, disconnecting utilities, rodent baiting and the development of site-specific safety and work plans.
The typical razing of a building is accomplished as follows:
- Hydraulic excavators may be used to topple one- or two-story buildings by an undermining process. The strategy is to undermine the building while controlling the manner and direction in which it falls.
- The demolition project manager/supervisor will determine where undermining is necessary so that a building is pulled in the desired manner and direction.
- The walls are typically undermined at a building's base, but this is not always the case if the building design dictates otherwise. Safety and cleanup considerations are also taken into account in determining how the building is undermined and ultimately demolished.
High reach demolition excavators are more often used for tall buildings where explosive demolition is not appropriate or possible. Excavators with shear attachments are typically used to dismantle steel structural elements. Hydraulic hammers are often used for concrete structures and concrete processing attachments are used to crush concrete to a manageable size, and to remove reinforcing steel. For tall concrete buildings, where neither explosive nor high reach demolition with an excavator is safe or practical, the "inside-out" method is used, whereby remotely operated mini-excavators demolish the building from the inside, whilst maintaining the outer walls of the building as a scaffolding, as each floor is demolished.
southsoundtree
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Olympia, WA
Why would a CA have any better skills than anyone else at not cutting themselves out of trees?
CA is a basic test, with very little safe-work practices in it. Virtually zero compared to real-life.
Some CAs haven't left the ground in years.
Some never have.
CA is a good indicator for basic tree care.
CA is a basic test, with very little safe-work practices in it. Virtually zero compared to real-life.
Some CAs haven't left the ground in years.
Some never have.
CA is a good indicator for basic tree care.
Some of the CA's I know are great at using impressive terminology when its come to talking about trees, but are basically as worthless as tits on a board when it comes to actually doing tree-work.
In New Jersey they are! I am a Licensed Tree Care Operator NOT a CA Or LTE Licenced Tree Expert. I am licensed by my state to do trimming and removals, thats it! If someone wants chemicals,tree risk assessment,cableing,planting,consulting,etc.I refer them to a LTE.My customers often do contact aLTE for advise or work that I do not do.So far its worked out well,and I have never lost any work by refering a customer to a LTE.Sorry to be redundant but I think some people missed that part of an earlier post and it seem pertinent to the conversation! I respect anyone who is against the iidea,i was too,after participating though I found what they had to offer invaluable!
I work 7 days a week,gross about 5k,after ins,taxes,maintaining and buying equipment,snd payroll we get to keep 800-1000. My buddy bought a bucket truck at an auction for 5k,he has no chipperor empoyees,he cuts down one or two trees a week,he makes about 800-1000. Im an idiot,but i can’t help it ,i feel like there has to be a better system,I know theres never going to be a perfect one
Birdyman, your percentage numbers for the CA test coverage come from questionnaires regularly sent out to CA's to determine what needs to be addressed on the test and how much weight a domain should have. It is not some arbitrary person or committee sitting on a pedestal playing CA god. The questionnaires are required by the ansi regulation that governs certification programs. ISA is audited on a regular basis to ensure compliance of all certifications that ISA administers.
Birdyman88
Branched out member
- Location
- Arlington
Totally agree.
ATH asked if there was an epidemic,trees dying from bad prunning ( i’m paraphrasing they were not his exact words) In south Jersey I believe there absolutely is.The general health of our red oaks sucks,its been declining for years,it is our state tree and we have some beautiful giants, alot of them are already stuggling,it doesnt take much to send one into a tailspin,a few ill advised cuts and there goes another gigantic beauty.Of coarse the guy responsible is long gone by time tree becomes stresed and dangerous,many times nieve homeowner calls him back and pays to have it remove,neither one of them put 2&2 together.
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