The Illusion of Safety: Safe vs. Safer vs. Safer-er

No one cares about your safety more than yourself and your loved ones. The corporate types, worksafe, osha etc appears to care about your safety, but in my experience they care about the statistics and making themselves look useful, the side effect of this is new control measures and procedures for the way we conduct our work activities
 
I've tried to steer clear of this one and just watch the mud fly from the sidelines but here goes: I've been doing a lot of research on word origins and definitions and I've discovered that safety is basically the opposite of risk. 100% safe is an unachievable goal, even if I stay in bed all my life I'll surely get bed sores and die a premature death. So there has to be a balance between risk avoidance and risk acceptance - risk management right?

Another way to phrase it is - Safety is having the power and ability to avoid the risk presented by a potential hazard, the power to say NO when presented with a dangerous situation.
 
rico said:
This posts is exactly whats wrong with some of the discussions around here. People giving advise about things they know nothing about.

Have you actually ever work for a high ballin, high production logging outfit ,Treehumper, or did you just hear about it from your timber cruising friend? As someone who spent almost 14 years of his life doing just that, I can tell you we weren't removing dead bodies on a weekly basis. Pure Bullshit!

Was it your personal experience climbing hundreds of big conifers with a pair of spurs, a flip-line, and a climbing line hanging from your saddle that made you come to the conclusion it was an unsafe method, or was it something your instructor taught you in arborist school?

I would never think to tell one of the real-deal arborists around here how they should prune that beautiful heritage Oak or Maple tree.
Why? Because I don't know what the f***uck I'm taking about when it comes to pruning.
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And exactly what advise am I giving? It's a statement about the underlying causes of incidents either in our industry or in any other industry. None of them being in doubt or debated.

I haven't worked in logging but the guys I've met and worked with, who have did just that for as many years and have seen just what was described. But that was back in the day or earlier, like when 70 people died in the business, 1997. For a longer time frame, lets see, 1992-2000, 780 fatalities. Then there's more recently and during your era, 91 deaths in 2016. Doing the math and that seems to work out to consistently more than 1/week. Hmmmm.... this seems to point out another aspect of the workplace both in logging and in arboriculture, the silo effect. While your "we" may not have seen those numbers and call, bullshit, the reality when looking at the whole of the industry is well, much different, thus the concept of the silo.

My five years prior to the apprenticeship program did involve doing conifer removals with a "flip-line", spurs and climb line hanging from my harness. The numbers and sizes were sufficient to give me some insight while I'm not going to suggest it is the same as the behemoths of the west. I had a 2-in-1 flip-line that provided a safer means of ascending, though not a safer-er one, if I'm being honest. So, does my personal experience of surviving mean that its safe for everyone? Nope, not when the industries as a whole are examined. That experience says that there is a safer-er way.

What was taught in the program was based on the real world experience of the whole industry and that was two points for tie-in. I argued that the 2-in-1 did just that but that didn't fly. Once again being rigorously honest with myself, I conceded their point. The climbing line hanging from my saddle while I climbed was something that did always seem odd. When I thought of it's purpose, a means of access and descent under normal and emergency conditions, then it made the practice of having it hanging from my harness useless. This was made clear the day I was taking down a 40" DBH spruce and an unseen hornet's nest was disturbed. Having my climbing line installed as per training allowed me to immediately descend without incident. Worth it's weight in gold.

Does that mean that loggers climbing great big conifers should do that too? Well maybe it would just be a bit of risk management that would pay off in reduced lost work days and increased WC costs. Mind you, there are more dangerous aspects in the industry that need to be address at ground level that would be more impactful in reducing the death rate (note: 2016's rate is 135.9 per 100,000 workers).

Scheffa makes the point about who cares most about your safety, you and your loved ones. Since your loved ones aren't on the job every day then it falls on you. How does one do that? By heeding those OSHA, Worksafe, corporate types, whose job it is to look at the big picture of the industry as a whole and translate what the data tells them into actionable recommendations. They are looking at all the ways in which workers kill and maim themselves which the individual worker may not be aware of for any number of reasons. This isn't to make themselves look busy, good or useful. It's about making the industry productive and profitable.

The rock star climber who is super productive is great right up until they kill themselves. Then that productivity is gone but the cost of their demise lingers on in the actuarial tables and elsewhere. While that slower plodding safety cop climber continues to produce long into their lifetime and has the added bonus of improving the insurance rates through their safe work practices. That much maligned group of executive types see that and its impact on the bottomline and think that's the way to do it.

This is a discussion of work practices that address risk management in a dangerous industry. We all have the luxury of being able to look beyond our own narrow slice of it to see the bigger picture and grasp the why's and wherefores of improved risk management.
 
rico said:
You do realized that my days as a production logger were from 1979 until the early 90's. What I do now is just my own, not so productive, small time local kill em', skid em', and mill em' operation.

No doubt a dangerous way to make a living but, but by your own numbers the deaths versus the thousands and thousand of workers hardly classifies as weekly bodybags flowing out of every outfit and camp in the country. Its an urban legend. As someone who was actually there, I can tell you it just didn't happen. Hell, most of the fellas I grew up with are still at it and by your account they should all be dead. How can that possible be?

Clearly you and I are never gonna agree on safety, and I'm good with that. I have and will always believe the single greatest safety tool is skill. In fact the only real injury I sustained in my life occurred while wearing a hardhat, chaps, eye protection, and ear protection. All that gear played are large roll in me being seriously hurt. Lucky for me a very wise old-timer took me under his wings and showed me a different way of staying alive. I have practiced what he preached for well over 30 years and what do ya' know. Alive, productive, and as pretty as ever!
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That ear protection is such a big deal. I went about 5 years without it on residential tree work, and I no longer have "great" hearing. It's not like I'm deaf, but I know that it was far better not to long ago.
I've seen the size of the saws you use every day. I bet they're LOUD.
 
SomethingWitty said:
That ear protection is such a big deal. I went about 5 years without it on residential tree work, and I no longer have "great" hearing. It's not like I'm deaf, but I know that it was far better not to long ago.
I've seen the size of the saws you use every day. I bet they're LOUD.
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I have not used ear protection for over 35 years (except when milling). My ears must be made out of old whale-bone, because I can hear just fine. What?
 
rico said:
No doubt a dangerous way to make a living but, but by your own numbers the deaths versus the thousands and thousand of workers hardly classifies as weekly bodybags flowing out of every outfit and camp in the country. Its an urban legend. As someone who was actually there, I can tell you it just didn't happen. Hell, most of the fellas I grew up with are still at it and by your account they should all be dead. How can that possible be?
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Yes, at that is the case in every industry and in every day activity that can kill you. It's not that it does every time and without fail but that it is a risk. It classifies as weekly body bags coming out of the woods in general, not, every camp or outfit in the country. Ask those people who counted the bodies if its an urban legend. They'll tell you because they were there that it happened. That's because they are seeing the whole of the industry vs. your very small corner of it.

How can it be possible that they are all dead? Because that's not how this works. Your small population of guys you grew up with isn't a sample size that is meaningful. That's the silo in which you live in. It makes the bigger picture invisible to you. That you were only injured once and that was when wearing PPE isn't even meaningful in the larger picture. Cause and effect. Maybe you thought that by wearing that stuff you're invincible but that's not how it works either.

End of the day, a person will find the evidence to support whatever they believe regardless of anything to the contrary. I choose to believe there are ways of doing my job profitably and reduce the risk. As well, that its an ongoing process.
 
treehumper said:
Yes, at that is the case in every industry and in every day activity that can kill you. It's not that it does every time and without fail but that it is a risk. It classifies as weekly body bags coming out of the woods in general, not, every camp or outfit in the country. Ask those people who counted the bodies if its an urban legend. They'll tell you because they were there that it happened. That's because they are seeing the whole of the industry vs. your very small corner of it.

How can it be possible that they are all dead? Because that's not how this works. Your small population of guys you grew up with isn't a sample size that is meaningful. That's the silo in which you live in. It makes the bigger picture invisible to you. That you were only injured once and that was when wearing PPE isn't even meaningful in the larger picture. Cause and effect. Maybe you thought that by wearing that stuff you're invincible but that's not how it works either.

End of the day, a person will find the evidence to support whatever they believe regardless of anything to the contrary. I choose to believe there are ways of doing my job profitably and reduce the risk. As well, that its an ongoing process.
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Once again talking utter sh**t about something you know nothing about. Do you have any knowledge of the circumstances of the one and only substantial injury I have sustain in my career? No you don't, do ya? Doesn't stop you from making assumptions does it? I can assure you feeling invincible had nothing to do with it.

My tiny little "silo" has between a 100-150 men in it. These are guys I personally grew up around that chose working in the woods as an occupation, and are still alive and kicking. That is "my very small corner' , but again my actual real world experience.

Seems that you might just be doing what you are accusing me of. I am showing my evidence based on my real world experiences. Unfortunately it is contrary to what you believe and your having none of it. I am fine with that, but please don't police how I chose to handle my business.

The bottom line is I chose a different path when it come to safety. You obviously don't agree with my method, but at the end of the day the proof is in the pudding. 40 years in the woods and still healthy and productive is good enough for me.
 
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rico said:
Once again talking utter sh**t about something you know nothing about. Do you have any knowledge of the circumstances of the one and only substantial injury I have sustain in my career? No you don't, do ya? Doesn't stop you from making assumptions does it? I can assure you feeling invincible had nothing to do with it.
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Then please explain? I'm not clear on how all that gear played a significant role in your injury. I wondered out loud what the cause of the injury was and conjectured not an assumption and since this is an open dialog, left it for you to correct or clarify.

The evidence I'm using is based on 100,000s of workers over the history of the industry where records have been kept. Simply facts, not projections or forecasts, data after the fact. It is also not my personal experience as that is even less consequential although, I can counter your experience with that of another veteran of about 40 yrs who didn't wear hardhats, hearing or eye protection for the same reasons you state. Now, he's retired but with his hearing shot and a head injury in the waning years that has led to some serious changes to his personality. But yeah, his wife, kids, family and friends are the only ones who have to deal with that.

So, yes, your group of men that you grew up with, like it or not, is tiny in the larger picture. This is not about what I believe, its about what the evidence gathered suggests. Your experience while it may be relevant to you and your cohorts it doesn't represent the industry. I do agree with you that skill is a big factor in working without injury but that doesn't negate other factors. The highly skilled can fall prey to complacency, haste, fatigue and all the rest of the underlying causes. As well, throwing on a load of body armor and other protective gear isn't going to make a novice without skill safe.
 
Ouch. Yeah, so, outside of the hearing protection in use at the time, not sure how any of the other pieces of PPE were involved. I can say that the hearing protection today doesn't interfere with hearing, it cuts down the level of noise to acceptable levels. If I were to analyze the incident it begins with the faller taking a tree down while you were within potential striking distance. That the tree didn't do what he expected suggests he didn't evaluate the fall very well. His responsibility was to make sure nobody was working in that area where there was a risk of being struck. If you were aware that he was felling a tree that was tall enough to reach you then, sure it was up to you either step out of the zone or pay attention as he was cutting to make sure it was going to fall in the direction intended. Even with that said, it was still the fallers job to clear you out.

That the faller wandered into your area and proceeded with the operation without taking the necessary precautions of either having you move back or pay attention is where the culpability lies not with the newbie who lacked the training and experience to know this.

Maybe the rules set out in OSHA today are a direct result of your accident? Or maybe they're the result of all the others similar to yours that lead to fatalities.

This is all just my take on it.
 
rico said:
I couldn't here him yelling, or the tree coming to get me because of the ear protection I was wearing. ( no saw running at the time).....
Down the road the road I go. The next season an amazing old time hook tender-took took me his wing and among other things taught me another way staying safe. Been practicing what he preached ever since. The best mentor in my life. Blessed.
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OK, let's look at this single thing with an open mind. It's true that hearing protection constricts your overall sensory awareness. That's a hazard, and we'll all agree that it is.
You can mitigate that hazard by not wearing ear protection. Eventually, you'll have some permanent hearing loss. That'd not a tradeoff most want to make. I don't.
I mitigate that by opening my ear muffs when I'm not running a saw or near loud equipment and looking around more than I usually would. It's creepy for me since I lost a good deal of useful sight a few years ago.

What did your mentor suggest for this specific hazard?





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