When will we catch up?

S

SRTTech

After reading a few posts related to aluminum rings and carabiners breaking, and having experienced it myself, as well as seen it happen to others, I began to wonder WHY the Arborist industry has NOT caught up to the rest of the Industrial Rope users out there (Tower, Pole, Utility, Industrial and SAR rope industries) and switched to ALL steel hardware (Namely carabiners).

Some will argue that steel carabiners are "too heavy". I personally feel that is a VERY POOR & WEAK excuse...considering that some industrial users are carrying double or triple the weight that we are, for longer periods of time, on their harness....and they have no complaints about it.

We work in a field where , daily, our gear is abused,carabiners are dropped, slammed against trees, throw on the ground at the end of the climb. WHY NOT have an extra measure of safety, and use steel biners? they handle abuse WAY better than alumimum, and in the long run are cheaper to operate than constantly replacing "questionable" aluminum biners.

I for one will be delighted when OSHA and other agencies wake up and rule that the tree care industry must STOP using rock climbing style aluminum locking carabiners, (WHICH were never intended for day in day out industrial use like we put em thru), and start using steel carabiners or steel snaps like EVERY other rope industry does (Fire/SAR, industrail , tower, pole etc).

hate me for speaking my mind, as much as i like ultralight gear, it simply does not belong in a WORK setting where it gets daily abuse.



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As long as those carabiners Read 25kN (5,620lbs) on the long axis and 7kN (1,573lbs) for the gate, then I will remain confident to use aluminium.

Seriously! My little 145lb body will not break a Petzl William Ball Lock carabiner.
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No i'm sure it wont. But the daily dropping of gear onto the ground, slamming it into trees, bouncing it off rocks, truck beds, tool box etc Do contribute to early failure. Thats what i'm talking about. Steel handles that abuse (and lets admit it...it is DAILY in our jobs, don't tell me anyone is careful with thier gear...) much better than aluminum.
 
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and in the long run are cheaper to operate than constantly replacing "questionable" aluminum biners.


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I can see your point with that one. Steel would be more cost effective in the long run.
 
I don't disagree but my personal experience with aluminum alloy biners has been almost 100% positive. I've been using them, for rock and mountain, for about 25 years and never had one break. I've had a stuck gate after a particularly wicked fall, that's it. I've dropped them 70' or 80' onto rocks a few times and if I found them, they were retired.

Rock gear takes a lot more abuse than tree gear; you use it on rock right? ...and it's frequently getting banged around and dropped and dynamically loaded. Rock gear is aluminum alloy because sometimes you have be self-contained and carry a bunch of it. Treework is different because you can just leave it on the ground and send for it if you need it, so steel is no real weight problem.

I think hitting an alloy biner or ring with a hammer will usually give bad results... so I don't hit my stuff with hammers. As for testing, hammer hits are completely unreliable because there is no way to measure consistently nor is that an analog to tree climbing stresses.

To me, you use the right tool for the job and that has to take how you work into account. Now I'm into treework I want triple action locking biners for everything... but I've used two standard D's with reversed gates on redirects and false crotches lots of times because I own a passle of'em. Snaps are just as good for most connections but I'm used to using biners.

Safety has to take circumstances into account... you want to be as safe as possible all the time... but sometimes you have to compromise to get something done or extricate yourself from a mistake or messy situation. True confession: I've completely untied ~50' off the deck to un-foul my rope. My stance was utterly solid in multiple big, healthy crotches but I'd screwed up and tangled my rope and lanyard... a more unsafe situation. No way that would comply with the Z but at the time, it was the safest thing to do.

I wouldn't object if the Z was revised to call for all steel hardware based on good data. I wouldn't hesitate to comply, but I don't think aluminum is dangerous... steel is just safer in an application where aluminum is already very safe.

One last thought. As long as they aren't negligent, people doing dangerous work get hurt because MULTIPLE things go wrong in rapid succession. The odds of a biner or rope failing without warning and allowing a worker to hit the ground seem extremely low. It's more likely that a rope would get twisted, THEN a biner gets cocked sideways over another piece of hardware and THEN a limb gives way underfoot... THEN the biner compromised by dynamic side loading and the climber's lifeline fails to hold the fall. A steel biner or snap would mitigate that, but so would keeping an eye on the TIP and taking the time to keep things squared away.

I think THE most dangerous climbing situation is being hurried... everybody screws up more when they have to hurry, it's human nature (could be I think that just because I'm slow).

Ps.
My new false crotch has steel rings.
 
The carabiners that I use for my climbing line are made of aluminum. The one that I use for my lanyard is steel. A few years ago I thought to myself "Hmmm. I keep smacking this little aluminum snap around. Why not go to something a bit heavier that will get thrown farther and will take the abuse better?" Zero complaints on it thus far. It's a 50kN double locking biner BTW.
 
I hear where you're coming from SRT-Tech but some points to consider:

1. Blinky covered this point well but I'll restate simply: tree climbers shouldn't be thrashing their aluminum biners. If so they're using them incorrectly. With normal handling in tree climbing biners aren't going to be taking any serious hard knocks. Like others said, if you drop it on hard surface from height it's retired.

2. Steel biners can be dangerous when you're pulling one on the end of a lanyard back through a crotch. I'm fine with dodging an aluminum biner coming at me and have taken a hit on my safety glasses once. It popped me good but no damage done. No way I want a steel biner coming at my face on a lanyard pull back. I use a long lanyard so the danger is increased.

3. This is minor but irritating: it seems like the steel biners I've used have a lot more sharp edges around the gate mechanisms. I don't always wear gloves in warm weather and I hate chipping skin off my knuckles when I'm climbing.
-moss
 
great posts and viewpoints by all. I made the post because i routinely see treegear (everything from harness to biners etc etc)) being "tree"ted :) by the users quite badly. Ropes left soaking wet in the ropebag, reeking of mildew and covered in ground in dirt, biners unrecognizable from all the dents and dings, biners dropped and slammed into things, harnesses covered in grime and left wet inside the gear bags, ropes and lanyards that are walked on, etc etc etc. It makes me, a rope tech whos equipment looks new even after years of use, shake my head sometimes...

While i cant push people to respect their equipment (wash their ropes, dry the ropes after a wet day instead of leaving them to mildew in the bags, not treat the gear so badly, not walking on the gear etc etc) at the very least i can try to get people to upgrade to more durable biners, because they seem to take the brunt of the abuse. I just bought a Petzl KADOR autolock steel biner40kn rating, and really...the weight difference is so minimal and the DURABILITY is 1000% greater...why not switch!

:) just a thought, ramblings on a rainy day
 
I'm with you on caring for your gear. Ropes and nylon gear should be kept dry and clean; they are much easier to inspect that way. Trashed biners should be turned into keychains or used to hang things up in the garage.

When I was climbing rock regularly it was customary to buy the owner a beer if you stepped on their rope... I've seen very experienced tree climbers walk all over their own ropes. I can't say about double braid and hollow braid, but grinding dirt and sand into a kernmantle rope is baaaad juju... it will cut the fibers bit by bit and weaken the rope continously unless you find a way to get it out.

I don't own a steel biner yet but they are in my future as I put together my own rigging gear. The weight's not an issue with me but the price is since I already own a lot of aluminum alloy biners.

People have an amazingly broad array of attitudes when it come to their life support gear. I know it over-engineered but I still want it to last. It much easier to cut loose and swing 60' or so up when you're confident that your stuff is in top condition.
 
Being the only problems I've had with aluminum is the gates and they are Petzl.

But I just had the revelation, thanks to the posts, that all my biners are going to be in the 'rigging' catagory of rating, just for another piece of mind if nothing else.

And it's a good idea to not pull the lanyard or climbing line thru a natural crotch with any biner on it, for it just might get stuck. Belt it while pulling, it goes on again quick and easy.
 
Like others, I've used al climbing gear for years with good results. The only tree gear that has been retired is rigging gear that was overloaded or broken plastic bits on climbing biners, mostly from one manufacturer that I don't use anymore.

After doing hundreds of gear inspections, both work and competition, over the years, I've come to a conclusion. Climbers who take care of their gear have good looking gear, al or steel. Switching to st. biners would give more of an edge but those climbers have harnesses and ropes that are shredded.

It's unlikely that there will be a regulatory shift to require a change of materials. The Z committee in the US and it's equivalent body around the world, have bigger issues to deal with. People dieing from struck-bys and electrocutions, etc.

There's sure nothing wrong with changing to stronger, more durable gear. But, my preference is to teach good gear care and to make good decisions.
 
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With normal handling in tree climbing biners aren't going to be taking any serious hard knocks. Like others said, if you drop it on hard surface from height it's retired.


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Which is one reason why you should avoid buying second hand biners and other arb climbing gear.
 
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It's unlikely that there will be a regulatory shift to require a change of materials. The Z committee in the US and it's equivalent body around the world, have bigger issues to deal with.

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Well said Tom!

Bigger issues such as the casual acceptance of one handed use of a chainsaw in the tree.
 
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Which is one reason why you should avoid buying second hand biners and other arb climbing gear.

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I can see the eBay ad now...

Climbing rope and harness, use once, some blood stains but otherwise like new!
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There is nothing wrong with rated aluminium climbing gear.

Using aluminium equipment does not mean that arborists are behind. In this case, its the opposite.


All of this came about from whacking a ring in a vice with a hammer - although interesting, its hardly scientific research, especially when there is scientiic research that suggests aluminium is perfectly safe as a material. Hairline cracks can occur in steel or aluminium, but its to do with the source material (rods in the case of karabiners) pre manufacture, not whether it was dropped from 5000 feet onto concrete. Aluminium chips rather than cracks in this 'fall damage' instance.

Better to ensure that the gates operate properly, rather than worry unnecessarily about what the karabiner is made of.

Carrying the excessive amounts of weight from steel items brings many problems with efficient and ergonomic work technique, yet doesn't solve any real issues.

IMO, there are real issues of real un-professional conduct that deserve more passionate attention and debate.
 
Tom changed my view on this quiet some time ago. i use aluminum Foin with Dyneema 'loop runner' for rigging; but keep some steel for dragging etc.; but also climbing. i have steel becuase i started with it and still have some; but also they are cheaper, somehow seem more durable. So, i use them on ground to expose these steel krabs to loss (probably biggest factor), abuse by ground control (another leader), dirt, moisture etc.; rather than finer, lighter duty aluminum.

"yet doesn't solve any real issues." _Lazuras 2 (Laz2:is that like phoenixing up from the flames twice?)

i can go with that in the climbing scenarios; save one thing- i like the throwing and flirting down/around weight of steel better than aluminum; and at better price. 2krabs are real good tooo. If something is banged/thrown around, perhaps better steel it still seems; at least cheaper too in that respect (i have some 5k's i paid $5 for years ago).

i even go more and more with a 4 Turn Strangle / Noose/ Fisherpersons, Scaffold etc. (looks like a Blake's that tail just exits at end of Coil and not after 1st Round Turn) hitch for lifeline termination. I like this for the strength, security dynamic absorptions and also a lighter duty/ soft throwing weight ready without krab for repositioning. But even better with steel krab(s) as additional weight; but lose the 'soft' weight property then. The length doesn't bother me, but i rode a DBY in same position for a long time; and that wasn't as heavy or dense as this 4Turn
 
I love my steel carabiener/climbing clip... entirely based on the extra weight of it in accordance with throwing my line up to the next crotch. Al seems a tad too light for a good toss without making a monkey's fist.
 
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