Water separator freezing up on Vermeer

[RyTheTreeGuy]

We have been experiencing below averaging temperatures as of late...-26*C and have been hving problems with the water seperator freezing. Obviously storing inside is the easiest solution but unfortuntely not feesable at this time. We have added de-gel and anti gel but still freezes up. Have resorted to tenting the engine and using a space heater over night. Just wondering if anyone else has experienced this and if you had any other solutions/suggestions.
Thanks

 

[flyingsquirrel25]

Haven’t had that issue since we went gas but if the water separator is freezing, is there excessive water in it. If so drain it and figure out if you are pulling water off the tank bottom (that was our problem as our chipper sat outside). If it’s a gel issue (not water) you will need to cut the fuel with an anti gel (not just the fuel in the separator or filter). When I lived in the north east the fuel we bought was cut already as a winter blend sometimes as high as 40% kero. It was always tough on sitting equipment or when the weather went from nice to super cold because the summer fuel would gel. But normally we would see it coming and get everything set for cold. If not 911 fuel additive worked wonders at getting stuff going and just get new winter fuel into it.
Good luck

 

[Gorman]

It’s the water emulsified in the fuel. Cold filter plugging it’s called. Happens before gelling. I’m not sure how to get it out but I’ve been told you have to double dose the Howe’s or Diesel 911 to get it to work.

 

[colb]

I really needed this thread last summer. Does my ditch witch SK650 have a water separator? Can I install one?

My unit is starting slow, but better than it did since my lady's dad went over the easy to reach parts of the fuel system. I'm in north Florida, so the temp gets down to about 30° each year, fairly often. The starter and battery are new, so it seems to be lack of fuel is the issue. I got a 1/2 cup of water in the system this summer. It was running, then cutting out - sooner and sooner until it was within a minute of starting, regardless of load.

So I'm wondering how to methodically improve it. Im aware that it might be water-corroded injectors, but I don't want to replace those unless I have to. I didn't grow up around diesel engines so I just have the past five years of looking under the hood and online forums to guide me. Also, if someone can let me know if I can install a separator and where it goes, etc. Thanks ahead of time.

 

[southsoundtree]

Probably a simple, right-now solution is a to periodically gravity-siphon with a little length of cheap hose from the hardware store bulk tubing section as appropriate for diesel, or some fuel line. Air in the partially-filled tank increases condensation. Keep the tank and fuel cans full, as much as possible.

 

[RyTheTreeGuy]

Thanks for the input gents...the temperature has come back up closer to 0*C and didnt have any issues firing it up yesterday. Ran it for 4 hours just to try and use up the old diesel and filled it up with some new stuff. Also added some more 911 and other additives. Once finished chipping drained the water seperator...fingers crossed. Thanks again

 

[Serf Life]

Use that block heater! If it doesn't have one then put one in. You can plug in the Vermeer and truck the night before work hooked up to a timer so your elec bill isn't crazy (2 hours or so). 911 etc is great but preheating is kinder to the engine.

 

[RyTheTreeGuy]

Use that block heater! If it doesn't have one then put one in. You can plug in the Vermeer and truck the night before work hooked up to a timer so your elec bill isn't crazy (2 hours or so). 911 etc is great but preheating is kinder to the engine.

Just ordered one from Caterpillar...best $60 I have ever spent

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Depending on what over night temps you expect you might put in two block heaters

My clam truck had a V8 diesel so I put one on each side.

Second on the timer. Best to find a heavy duty timer. One that’s in a metal box and is hardwired to an outlet. Extension cords with at least 10 gauge wire

You only need about 2-3 hours warming.

 

[Serf Life]

Good idea on using two heaters. My 7.3 sounds angry starting even with it plugged in and fuel treatment added. Thanks for the tip

 

[craneguy1]

Most engine manufactureres have a set place they want block heaters to go.

 

[Gorman]

The John Deere on my chipper doesn’t have one. I bought one for it but the port to screw it in is frozen. Put an impact gun on it and nothing, broke the stud off my breaker bar. I thought about a torch but then I realized I’d be heating up part of a cast iron block. Not a good idea. There’s only a handful of times it won’t start a year so I’ll just resort to a salamander heater in the morning.

 

[Jimmycrackcorn]

We have been experiencing below averaging temperatures as of late...-26*C and have been hving problems with the water seperator freezing. Obviously storing inside is the easiest solution but unfortuntely not feesable at this time. We have added de-gel and anti gel but still freezes up. Have resorted to tenting the engine and using a space heater over night. Just wondering if anyone else has experienced this and if you had any other solutions/suggestions.
Thanks

Hey Ry.. i kinda just breezed through the thread & didn't see it mentioned.. but have you replaced the filter itself?

The block heater, the dual block heater are going to be your best friend when it comes to actually making it fire up.. most manufacturers have made it simple for aftermarket install & have designed ports for them..

As far as your water problem..
I don't know why i haven't seen many people do this on their chippers considering the loosey goosey fuel caps & the amount of dust & debris that ends up in our tanks in the tree industry... But if you are having alot of water problems & you want to get all that junk out of your fuel, I'd look into a Fass or Airdog setup. Some of the guys here may be familiar with them, some may swear by them & some may ignorantly laugh at them .. Regardless, when the system is running, it constantly recycles your fuel, running it over & over through the filtration system removing all Air before it enters your injectors & all water before leaving the pump itself.

Depending on how new or old your chipper is, your injectors may be extremely sensitive to debris.. especially if it's a common rail system.. the fuel passages & tolerances within these systems are smaller than a hair on your head & some of the stock filtration systems are anemic compared to what the injectors manufacturer suggests... For example, a Bosch injector may call for 2-3 micron filtration, but the manufacturer of the equipment or vehicle may ignore that & use a 10-15 micron. Yes that may not sound like a big difference, but it is & it causes premature damage to the system.

The Fass & Airdog systems aren't cheap & yes there are other types of additional filtration you can easily plumb up, but the Fass & Airdog are the only ones that are going to continually recycle the fuel removing all Air & Water from the fuel before it reaches your high pressure system.

Also, if you live in a cold climate, you can buy fuel heaters these system where the fuel gets heated way back at the filter block to prevent even the smallest possibility of gelling or fix gelling if it has already somehow happened.

Either way, additional low micron filtration on these super expensive new era diesels is never a bad idea.. & if u can remove 99% of air & water too, that's even better for its longevity.

What i would do, is call up the guys at Fass & ask to speak to a veteran tech. Tell them the problem you are having & i garantee they will take the time to give you a solution regardless if you want to purchase a unit or not. They will not try to sell you stuff you don't need.. Their good people & moving 100% uncontaminated fuel from the tank to the high pressure system is their specialty.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Most engine manufactureres have a set place they want block heaters to go.

When I was putting the frost plug heaters in my clam truck and chipper the counter guy at the parts store pulled out the catalog. Every engine had locations marked that were optimal or easy to access. I was lucky, mine were both. On some engines the optimal frost plug is located behind exhaust manifolds...too much work to install.

 

[Jimmycrackcorn]

I really needed this thread last summer. Does my ditch witch SK650 have a water separator? Can I install one?

My unit is starting slow, but better than it did since my lady's dad went over the easy to reach parts of the fuel system. I'm in north Florida, so the temp gets down to about 30° each year, fairly often. The starter and battery are new, so it seems to be lack of fuel is the issue. I got a 1/2 cup of water in the system this summer. It was running, then cutting out - sooner and sooner until it was within a minute of starting, regardless of load.

So I'm wondering how to methodically improve it. Im aware that it might be water-corroded injectors, but I don't want to replace those unless I have to. I didn't grow up around diesel engines so I just have the past five years of looking under the hood and online forums to guide me. Also, if someone can let me know if I can install a separator and where it goes, etc. Thanks ahead of time.

Yes Colb.. you can add whatever u want..
With a quick search & assuming your engine package I came up with a really small Donaldson 40 mic filter for that system.. it looks as if it's one of those designs that just floats inline.. does this look familiar?

If i were you & i really wanted a water seperator, I'd look for a short compact screw on style that you could mount remotely somewhere. There's literally thousands upon thousands of filters you could use. Whereas i don't know what you have going on under the hood for space or what the fuel systems' manufacturer recommends, i can't really make a better suggestions for ya.. What i suggested for Ry wouldnt be a good solution for you as it's just waaay too much for what u need & the volume of fuel that machine moves.. but that's not too say a water seperator isn't needed.. you just need a small package.

Find out who makes the injectors, what type of fuel system you have & what that manufacturer actually recommends, then compare it to what you have as far as microns & go from there. Most of these fuel filtration systems are modular & only require a bracket or two, some fittings & line.. But getting something compatible & having the specs right is the most important as you don't want something so tight in filtration it can't prime or pull.

 

[Jimmycrackcorn]

When I was putting the frost plug heaters in my clam truck and chipper the counter guy at the parts store pulled out the catalog. Every engine had locations marked that were optimal or easy to access. I was lucky, mine were both. On some engines the optimal frost plug is located behind exhaust manifolds...too much work to install.

Ohhh yuk.. that is a bit of wrenching.. especially if on a V8 from the salt belt.. guess I've been lucky with all mine..

Mingya.. i feel bad for the guy who bought my last powerstroke & thought he was going to replace the manifolds & up-pipes.. i couldn't even see the bolts anymore.. Just a mounds of rust that looked like fried honey barbecue chicken strips..

 

[colb]

Yes Colb.. you can add whatever u want..
With a quick search & assuming your engine package I came up with a really small Donaldson 40 mic filter for that system.. it looks as if it's one of those designs that just floats inline.. does this look familiar?

If i were you & i really wanted a water seperator, I'd look for a short compact screw on style that you could mount remotely somewhere. There's literally thousands upon thousands of filters you could use. Whereas i don't know what you have going on under the hood for space or what the fuel systems' manufacturer recommends, i can't really make a better suggestions for ya.. What i suggested for Ry wouldnt be a good solution for you as it's just waaay too much for what u need & the volume of fuel that machine moves.. but that's not too say a water seperator isn't needed.. you just need a small package.

Find out who makes the injectors, what type of fuel system you have & what that manufacturer actually recommends, then compare it to what you have as far as microns & go from there. Most of these fuel filtration systems are modular & only require a bracket or two, some fittings & line.. But getting something compatible & having the specs right is the most important as you don't want something so tight in filtration it can't prime or pull.

Thanks for responding. I haven't seen anything like that part, except the first fuel filter which is obviously not that. I'll look closer next time I'm under the hood. I guess I should be able to ask a DW tech for the right specification, either locally or in Oklahoma. It helps to know what to converse with them about. Thanks.

 

[Jimmycrackcorn]

Thanks for responding. I haven't seen anything like that part, except the first fuel filter which is obviously not that. I'll look closer next time I'm under the hood. I guess I should be able to ask a DW tech for the right specification, either locally or in Oklahoma. It helps to know what to converse with them about. Thanks.

"You haven't seen anything like that, except for the first fuel filter which obviously isn't that"

Ya lost me there bud.. Did you see that filter under the hood at one point? Or No..?

Do you know who makes the motor? Is it a Kobota like the Donaldson filter chart wants me to think?

"It helps to know what to converse with them about."

Ahh IC.. it's like that that, aye? You don't really know what's exactly what under there? I'm not busting your balls, serious question. I ask as i don't wanna be yammering on in a foriegn language to ya...

Aside from all the BS emissions crap & electrical gadgets their strapping on these days, diesels basic principles are pretty simple.. You got Fuel, Air & very high compression to make it all function.. no spark needed.. when they ain't getting the fuel volume or pressure they want, they can get finiky..


Feel free to PM me if you feel we're gonna clog the thread up with basic stuff.. I'll walk ya through your basic options the best i can..

Edit- looks like you have a 30-32 hp Kubota in there.. You should have two filters, one below battery tray & another smaller one inline..
I haven't seen any mention of a water seperator, however the one under the battery may be playing double duty as one. Whatever it is under there I'd want it to be a decent micron rating & if it is a double duty scenario, I'd want to see a drain on it.. & if possible a clear bowl on the bottom as well to be able to see when there's water in there.
According to the literature i just read, the SK650's motor is a Kubota D1105-T. The newer/newest SK650 is supposedly a Teir 4 (emissions friendly model) using the same motor, but not listing out what is different in the emissions end.

Regardless, seeing an actual screw on under the tray is allot better than the impression i was under of only having a tiny little inline back when i first responded..

 

[Wes84]

I really needed this thread last summer. Does my ditch witch SK650 have a water separator? Can I install one?

My unit is starting slow, but better than it did since my lady's dad went over the easy to reach parts of the fuel system. I'm in north Florida, so the temp gets down to about 30° each year, fairly often. The starter and battery are new, so it seems to be lack of fuel is the issue. I got a 1/2 cup of water in the system this summer. It was running, then cutting out - sooner and sooner until it was within a minute of starting, regardless of load.

So I'm wondering how to methodically improve it. Im aware that it might be water-corroded injectors, but I don't want to replace those unless I have to. I didn't grow up around diesel engines so I just have the past five years of looking under the hood and online forums to guide me. Also, if someone can let me know if I can install a separator and where it goes, etc. Thanks ahead of time.

Colb. A little off topic but what part of the panhandle do you live in. Im in southeast Alabama right on the FL line.

Also I know that on newer Ditch Witch units they have a water separator and they recommend changing the fuel filter and creating the separator at least with every oil change (250 hrs.). Especially true with the constant high humidity in our part of the country.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

 

[flyingsquirrel25]

Colb. A little off topic but what part of the panhandle do you live in. Im in southeast Alabama right on the FL line.

Also I know that on newer Ditch Witch units they have a water separator and they recommend changing the fuel filter and creating the separator at least with every oil change (250 hrs.). Especially true with the constant high humidity in our part of the country.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

Correct my DW has the separator. Very simple to pull the drain out the bottom every hundred or so hours. I put a Pyrex dish under there to catch the fuel and see how bad the water is. Gives me the gauge am I draining often enough.