UK Arb moving to two ropes at all times (USA next?)

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The UK Health and Safety Executive are now expecting to see the climber attached to two ropes at all times when in the tree.

UK climbers are now actively fighting the decision based on it being unworkable and at times more dangerous than moving through the tree on a single rope and in various other treework operations that involve rigging etc.. This is not to be confused with two attachment points when cutting - it means two ropes when working in the tree at all times similar to IRATA/SPRAT industrial rope access workers.

The HSE attended a demonstration put on by the UK Arboricultural Association where the AA's demo climbers attempted to show just how difficult and impractical it would be to use two climbing ropes in various treeclimbing scenarios but the HSE having seen the demo are not moving from their position.

Much of HSE's concern is seems to be based on the use of SRT and SRTWP (work positioning) - which they now class as rope access (IRATA/SPRAT) this means they're pushing for general DdRT on a single line (majority of UK climbers) to be doubled up as well. The evolution of SRT via into SRTWP has undoubtedly led to this point.

Original AA article outlining the HSE decision -

https://www.trees.org.uk/Help-Advice/Public/Background-to-the-HSE-decision-on-two-rope-working

Arbtalk threads -

https://arbtalk.co.uk/forums/topic/116973-background-to-the-hse-decision-on-two-rope-working/

https://arbtalk.co.uk/forums/topic/117047-two-rope-working-consultation/
 
I pretty much went straight into SRT but use DRT on lanyard/long lanyard /mini second line. Coming in green, my self preservation said "why isolate the tip and put 100% on a single spot?" seeing typical DRT tip isolation. A taught method. Tip failure, you're on the ground. Not needing isolation for an SRT tip gave redundancy, i.e. more safety, to the greatest uncertainty the tree wood. You know, the "engineer approved attachment point". I made it SOP to have the rope over at least two fully sufficient tips to double my safety level. Or have a sufficient redundant tip below the tip I was on.

I've watched lots of conversations about cutting ropes, up side or down rope side with the practical "if you cut your rope, up or down, SRT or DRT your f'ed". Seemed a wash to me.

I don't understand why multiple TIPs advantage of SRT has never been emphasized or recognized. I also don't understand why the massive reduction of fall-factor effect from using SRT is never emphasized or recognized. Two paralleled ropes single length vs singled rope in series twice as long, 4x reduction, let alone using branch structure shock absorption. Vs single rigid crotch at the trunk.

What's up with this head in the sand syndrome? The UK stuff is penalizing SRT over "less"safety.
 
You speak like you're unaware that a base tied SRT setup's a force multiplier.

Too many climber's clueless to that fact's why so many old school arbs in positions of power are freakin out.

I suspect more SRT climbers have torn out their upper redirect and hit the ground, than DDRT climbers have suffered TIP failures.

It may not double your weight like a pulley does, but it comes real close in far too many scenarios.

Base tied SRT being a force multiplier should be the first thing outta every instructor's mouth IMO.

Jemco
 
Jemco said:
You speak like you're unaware that a base tied SRT setup's a force multiplier.
Too many climber's clueless to that fact's why so many old school arbs in positions of power are freakin out...
Click to expand...

Base ties open up so much potential for force redirection and dispersal that to focus on just the "potential" of a force multiplier, would be like banning the use of ropes because they are so easily cut.
 
So much depends on tree structure, number of redirects, and the upmost primary rediect's strength, that too many SRT climbers with poor judgement, and lack of differing species wood strength n characteristics knowledge, are hitting the ground hard.

That Human character on YouTube's got a vid of him broken up on the ground after just such an incident.

BAse tied SRT in certain configurations will double your weight at the upper redirect.

Can you say force multiplier students.....

Jemco
 
I haven't heard of anyone breaking their redirects or tips on base Tyes, maybe I'm not in the loop.
I've actually been challenging myself to have 2 tips even sometimes when I rec climb. I think climbing arborist made a video about it too. I think I heard Kevin Bingham does it a lot too. I can definitely see how it could be a real pain in the ass on a lot of trees for example a spruce or conifer....where is your second tip going to be when you have only one central stem? Would you have to keep 2 lanyards or a DEDA lanyard so no matter where your moving to you cannot disconnect one lanyard untill the next one is connected to a branch or around the stem in the direction your climbing towards?
I guess if it's a take down then it would be easy but does being tied in up top and a lanyard around the stem comply? Then do you need another lanyard for cutting?
Is the rule to just be tied in twice at all times and you can cut without a lanyard ?

From the couple clips I saw of Mr human... He doesn't seem bright and he's lucky to be alive from some of the very questionable things I've seen him do. Not just climbing but cutting and rigging as well.
I don't know man but if I had to keep two tips at all times then so be it. Things might go slower on some jobs and the price might rise on those jobs.
Oh well it's not impossible and I'm sure once you gotta do it everyday then we are just gonna find ways to make it faster.
Arbs will always adapt and get better if they want to.
I think the bigger reason for deaths and fatalities are due to states that don't require a license to do this work and lack of drug testing. Too many hacks are out there paying addicts cash and driving prices down, then there's a lot of big crews out there over working there guys into the dark everyday just to stay competitive. Their employees whether strung out or over worked are bound to get hurt and drive these death/injury statistics up.
If only everybody could get the money on jobs so guys don't need to rush just to squeeze in "one more little job on the way home" ...
Not to mention when guys are over worked and don't have free time to educate themselves and the boss could give a shit about bringing the guys to an expo or workshop, those employees probably won't have the time to learn anything new and safe.
I've seen too many good guys get on some messed up crews with fucked up bosses and sooner or later whether it's from being over worked and beat up from too many hours or from working around a bunch of addicts, they end up becoming addicts too. And there's just too many bosses out there that only care about the money period.
 
FWIW I was using my base leg as a cowboy
Zip line for the last tree today. A triple stemmed birch with a average dbh of 22”. It worked well, but it’s not for every tree
 
I can see the benefit in two “climbing” lines for work positioning in certain situations. But not in every situation. In some situations it could be more headache than help I think. Isn’t that what we use lanyards for, to ensure multiple points of attachment in tree?

Are they focusing on actual climbing lines or just two points of attachment in general?
 
Jemco said:
So much depends on tree structure, number of redirects, and the upmost primary rediect's strength, that too many SRT climbers with poor judgement, and lack of differing species wood strength n characteristics knowledge, are hitting the ground hard.

That Human character on YouTube's got a vid of him broken up on the ground after just such an incident.

BAse tied SRT in certain configurations will double your weight at the upper redirect.

Can you say force multiplier students.....

Jemco
Click to expand...

I have nearly succumbed to Tip failure after converting to isolation on same union because of force vectors, whereby the base tie had a better vector than the isolation of a limb. Limb nearly snapped on isolation - when I converted back to base tie the limb straightened up even with my full weight on it...
 
TC said:
The UK Health and Safety Executive are now expecting to see the climber attached to two ropes at all times when in the tree.

UK climbers are now actively fighting the decision based on it being unworkable and at times more dangerous than moving through the tree on a single rope and in various other treework operations that involve rigging etc.. This is not to be confused with two attachment points when cutting - it means two ropes when working in the tree at all times similar to IRATA/SPRAT industrial rope access workers.

The HSE attended a demonstration put on by the UK Arboricultural Association where the AA's demo climbers attempted to show just how difficult and impractical it would be to use two climbing ropes in various treeclimbing scenarios but the HSE having seen the demo are not moving from their position.

Much of HSE's concern is seems to be based on the use of SRT and SRTWP (work positioning) - which they now class as rope access (IRATA/SPRAT) this means they're pushing for general DdRT on a single line (majority of UK climbers) to be doubled up as well. The evolution of SRT via into SRTWP has undoubtedly led to this point.

Original AA article outlining the HSE decision -

https://www.trees.org.uk/Help-Advice/Public/Background-to-the-HSE-decision-on-two-rope-working

Arbtalk threads -

https://arbtalk.co.uk/forums/topic/116973-background-to-the-hse-decision-on-two-rope-working/

https://arbtalk.co.uk/forums/topic/117047-two-rope-working-consultation/
Click to expand...

Anyone for a twin runner? Back to back HH? Atwimbo? Twig Zag?
 
Last edited:
It appears that two ropes will be required at all times, with lanyard use added while cutting. It seems to be a knee jerk reaction to an increase in accidents. They haven’t figured out the specifics, or causes of all these accidents, but throwing another rope at it seems the easiest solution for them.
 
may have been discussed :estudioso:
  1. type of work prune or remove
  2. type of tree excurrent, decurrent
  3. knowledge and practical experience of arbclimber, apprentice with mentorship, self taught, maverick etc
  4. tools being used pole saws, saws, manual or power
Smart move to save lives. Argue how you will, truth is from my perspective as an arbclimber I am many times more productive with two life lines and positioning lanyard. Not all the time but many times throughout a climb especially in crown reduction and hazard prunes and removals.
Because I am alive and injury free from countless small and large anticipated and unanticipated failures.
 
Those advocating two ropes are stating the benefits for the work being done, not so much that it was safer to use two. Has anyone using two ropes had the second taken over when the first failed?
 
I'm guessing that if you were to use a backup device like an Asap or Rocker, which would often be the easiest thing, you would need a sternal attachment, thus limiting the number of harnesses you can use.
 
Brocky said:
Those advocating two ropes are stating the benefits for the work being done, not so much that it was safer to use two. Has anyone using two ropes had the second taken over when the first failed?
Click to expand...

Heard of plenty of widow makers guided in their fall between the ropes of a ddrt straight to the climber. That is my major beef with two lines in congested or compromised trees...
 
Brocky said:
It appears that two ropes will be required at all times, with lanyard use added while cutting. It seems to be a knee jerk reaction to an increase in accidents. They haven’t figured out the specifics, or causes of all these accidents, but throwing another rope at it seems the easiest solution for them.
Click to expand...
It is never a good outcome when the damn bureaucrats get a bee in their bonnet to improve things. Politicians and people sitting in offices who may never have been in a tree their whole lives. They see black and white remedies and just cannot grasp the complexities and the need for many options when there is such a variety of work situations. I have seen this idiotic interference in the foundry industry, with OSHA. One example is that ordinary foundry sand, which admittedly has silica in it, is now a toxic substance and almost impossibly expensive to handle or get rid of. Never mind the exact same sand is sold at Home Depot and other places as Play Sand for your kids' sand box. And most any beach is covered with it, for children to toss at each other and dig in.
 
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