Throwline/electric protocol
- Thread starter SoftBankHawks
- Start date
- Location
- Chardon, OH
YOU may have been "properly" grounded. Wet, sweaty clothes, gloves, boots would improve the ground immensely.
Power line workers wear dielectric boots, gloves, etc.
I used to work around and on (e.g. walk on) bus-work carrying hundreds of thousand of amps.
I tested my boots for pin holes & conductivity every day !
- Location
- Chardon, OH
I have worked in the electro-chemical industry for more than 40 years.
The equipment used high voltage & hundreds of thousands of amps.
These currents could create magnetic fields that would pull a large wrench out of your pocket or hand.
I personally know lots & lots of folks that were shocked, some were severely burned.
(deaths have also occurred)
These were generally accidents, or because they were not following proper safety procedures.
I have never been "bitten". I was very careful.
Several options / comments:
1. Quit sub-scientific "experiments"
2. Follow the safety protocols.
These have been written based on true science, experience & accidents.
3. Don't set a "bad" example.
Just because you can't find the "ultimate" reference, doesn't mean that you should develop you own.
This approach could obviously lead to someone else following your example with a very different result.
All the best. Keep it safe.
There are already enough hazards out there without "testing" to see how close you can get.
The equipment used high voltage & hundreds of thousands of amps.
These currents could create magnetic fields that would pull a large wrench out of your pocket or hand.
I personally know lots & lots of folks that were shocked, some were severely burned.
(deaths have also occurred)
These were generally accidents, or because they were not following proper safety procedures.
I have never been "bitten". I was very careful.
Several options / comments:
1. Quit sub-scientific "experiments"
2. Follow the safety protocols.
These have been written based on true science, experience & accidents.
3. Don't set a "bad" example.
Just because you can't find the "ultimate" reference, doesn't mean that you should develop you own.
This approach could obviously lead to someone else following your example with a very different result.
All the best. Keep it safe.
There are already enough hazards out there without "testing" to see how close you can get.
monkeylove
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Roslyn, Pa.
How are we supposed to work around lines Greg, or can you point me to a book. Thanks.
Our local electronic company will send someone out if requested but they only cut what is touching the lines. That leaves alot of limbs that still need to be addressed and they usually within that zone where something might touch the line while trimming. Right now I use a fiberglass poled pruning saw as much as I can but I'm not sure that would be enough.
Our local electronic company will send someone out if requested but they only cut what is touching the lines. That leaves alot of limbs that still need to be addressed and they usually within that zone where something might touch the line while trimming. Right now I use a fiberglass poled pruning saw as much as I can but I'm not sure that would be enough.
- Location
- Chardon, OH
Sorry. I'm no help. I don't work in trees around power lines.
I was just trying to point out the "folly" of testing the limits.
Even if you wear dielectric boots, you need some way of testing them periodically.
I was just trying to point out the "folly" of testing the limits.
Even if you wear dielectric boots, you need some way of testing them periodically.
Depends on which lines you are working around. On triplex(braided service lines) minimum approach is "avoid contact" on primary wires it depends on voltage. Normal distribution voltage doesn't exceed 26.5 kv which is a minimum approach of 31".
OSHA has recently deferred to the utility companies to provide the minimum approach distance to those working around their lines due to the variable voltages dependent upon how their distribution system is set up. If you treat all lines like they are the maximum voltage on any particular systems -you should be safe. That being said-per OSHA any person that is not Line Clearance certified cannot work within 10 feet of an energized line.
If you are concerned about your safety around the lines (a good thing) see if you can get in contact with the Utility Forester in your area. Explain your concerns and ask for information about the system you are working around. Utility companies get an overwhelming amount of requests to cut trees that "might fall on the lines", so legitimate requests are often grouped in with those. If you get in good with the forester, not only will you have a direct contact for your inquiries, you may pick up some extra work. Most line-clearance operations are only equipped for trimming -not removals and clean up.
NorCalBrock
Branched out member
- Location
- Chico
10 ft. Minimum Approach Distance (MAD) is clearly spelled out in ANSI Z-133 4.1.5 and is used by OSHA.
Climber or equipment shall not come within 10' of lines considered to be energized. Cable and communications lines are to be considered energized.
It is my understanding that they will be updating it to make the "shall" include anything that can create a ground, which will include the entire tree as part of the MAD.
Must be qualified (being a certified arborist or tree worker does not qualify someone) to be within 10'.
This safety standard was created for arborist by arborists. It is also based on research on fatalities and injuries.
Stay well clear unless you have EHAP, which just shrinks the MAD, or a utility line clearance cert.
If you or an employee gets zapped, then you are liable. You broke the MAD
Climber or equipment shall not come within 10' of lines considered to be energized. Cable and communications lines are to be considered energized.
It is my understanding that they will be updating it to make the "shall" include anything that can create a ground, which will include the entire tree as part of the MAD.
Must be qualified (being a certified arborist or tree worker does not qualify someone) to be within 10'.
This safety standard was created for arborist by arborists. It is also based on research on fatalities and injuries.
Stay well clear unless you have EHAP, which just shrinks the MAD, or a utility line clearance cert.
If you or an employee gets zapped, then you are liable. You broke the MAD
I have thrown my line across the neutral wire on a two phase. My first reaction was to remove it as fast as I could, I didn't bother taking my bag off the line. Instead, i just tugged it off. I was careful not to swing the bag on to the primary. The line did shake. I was using my company's equipment witch is as standard as it gets. A 16 ounce weaver throw ball and cheap target line, probably nylon.
- Location
- Winnipeg
Give this rope a look. Its dielectric even when wet and can be tested like an FRP hot stick tool. It can also be knotted, but comes with sewed eyes at each end.
https://www.barry.ca/products/hl-np?variant=45130406990
evo
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- My Island, WA
I've done it twice with zing or fling it. First time was a ricochet and the line went 0ver a three phase. We cleared the tail by tossing a fiberglass pole on the line then untieing from the cube. We did the same on the bag side and just pulled the line out from under the grounded pole.
Second time was using way to much power on the big shot, and making the perfect shot. The bag just flew through the crotch, and sailed away. I had no clue it was over the power lines across the road, I started to pull the bag up, then met resistance. I thought it was a tight twig union, so I tried breaking it off a few times. After tugging on it HARD I noticed the powerlines were swaying down the street, that's when I had the "OH SHIT" moment. Went and looked and the damn bag wrapped about a million times around the wire. I called the power co, lady on the phone had no clue what I was talking about. She repeated what she thought was going on as a kite on a power line.
While waiting I cleared the opposite end, and cut the line as it was presenting a traffic hazard too.
both times I don't want to repeat, but certainly made indirect contact with bare wires.
Second time was using way to much power on the big shot, and making the perfect shot. The bag just flew through the crotch, and sailed away. I had no clue it was over the power lines across the road, I started to pull the bag up, then met resistance. I thought it was a tight twig union, so I tried breaking it off a few times. After tugging on it HARD I noticed the powerlines were swaying down the street, that's when I had the "OH SHIT" moment. Went and looked and the damn bag wrapped about a million times around the wire. I called the power co, lady on the phone had no clue what I was talking about. She repeated what she thought was going on as a kite on a power line.
While waiting I cleared the opposite end, and cut the line as it was presenting a traffic hazard too.
both times I don't want to repeat, but certainly made indirect contact with bare wires.
TimBr
Official Well Known Greeter
- Location
- Northern Virginia
@Engineer22; Welcome to the TreeBuzz forum! I think you are going to like it here! Great first post, congratulations!
I appreciate you going to the trouble of signing up for the forum to post that link. Barry Products is a company I'd never heard of before I read your post. Thanks again.
Tim
I appreciate you going to the trouble of signing up for the forum to post that link. Barry Products is a company I'd never heard of before I read your post. Thanks again.
Tim
- Location
- Chardon, OH
Just My Opinion ................
OK, it passes a dielectric test when new, clean, and even wet with pure water.
Mineral salts, dirt, sea salt, etc, etc will effect that dielectric condition.
In the electrochemical industry, boots, gloves, poles, etc are tested every day or before use.
I doubt that ANY tree service is going to have this capability, unless that is their specialty.
Personally, I would not use that rope without the ability to test.
I have , many times, seen high-tension ceramic insulators arc between each other on a humid day just because they were dirty. (i.e. they were conducting on the surface !)
Colin1234567
Participating member
Good post NorCalBrock, though I’d like to make one distinction in regards to EHAP because it’s been on my mind quite recently because of my new employers expectations about proximity to power lines. I have been switching between utility and residential for the past few years and I recently switched back into the residential sector. The only entity that says you can get within 10 feet of lines is the actual utility company. Having EHAP makes you more educated, but your MAD does not shrink accordingly. My new employer thinks I’m arguing semantics when I try to explain this distinction. Will I get closer than 10 feet to finish a tree in residential- yes. Am I breaking MAD? Yes. I am no longer a line clearance certified arborist as soon as I quit my utility job and switched to residential. Just wanted to try to clear this up because I’ve seen this misnomer many times with many companies. Great thread. Cheers.
misfit
Participating member
- Location
- Baton Rouge
I am just now seeing this discussion, and I have read it all with great interest because this happened to me once a few years ago. I was shooting my throwbag in a direction parallel to the power lines in a residential area, and the bag ricocheted 90 degrees over the power lines. The bag fell to the leaf-covered ground with the throw line resting over two uninsulated wires. The back end of the throwline was still tied to my cube sitting on a concrete parking lot. I was expecting sparks to fly, but nothing happened. My question is this: if the throwline is conducting, should it not be causing some sparks or at least a little noise where it touches the ground? If there are no sparks or noise, does this indicate that is it probably safe to touch?
- Location
- Nationwide
Overhead primary wires always have an amount of potential energy in terms of amperage. That amperage is always looking for a path to ground. It will take any and all paths to ground, once that path presents itself.
The term describing the pressure that amperage is under is voltage.
Without more information, it’s impossible to know what voltage the circuit your throwline came to rest upon was operating at.
As has been established, a clean dry throwline makes for a poor conductor of electricity.
But, it’s not necessary for the throwline to be capable of delivering 100% of the amperage to injure or kill a person. So it becomes a combination of how much amperage, how much voltage, how good is the conductor, how good is the contact between the conductor and the energy source, what is the duration, etc.
So when you consider the situation from that perspective, the answer is No, it won’t necessarily spark, smoke, or make any sound. That doesn’t mean that there isn’t electricity present.
The term describing the pressure that amperage is under is voltage.
Without more information, it’s impossible to know what voltage the circuit your throwline came to rest upon was operating at.
As has been established, a clean dry throwline makes for a poor conductor of electricity.
But, it’s not necessary for the throwline to be capable of delivering 100% of the amperage to injure or kill a person. So it becomes a combination of how much amperage, how much voltage, how good is the conductor, how good is the contact between the conductor and the energy source, what is the duration, etc.
So when you consider the situation from that perspective, the answer is No, it won’t necessarily spark, smoke, or make any sound. That doesn’t mean that there isn’t electricity present.
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I'm a trained arborist, currently removing hazard trees over the power lines for a subcontractor for the power company.
I have some 90' palms to remove.
They've never been trimmed and I worry about palm frond collapse if I climb from the bottom up.
I need to install a line in the top and remove from the top down.
21 kv lines are 7 feet away, so there's a good chance the throwball could cross the lines.
I've seen guys who don't worry about it because they keep their throw line clean and dry and obviously untie the bag for retrieval.
On Monday I'll try it. I hate any contact with power lines, but I've seen guys with clean polyester throw line toss toward the lines. It seems preferable to having these palms collapse on me.
I have some 90' palms to remove.
They've never been trimmed and I worry about palm frond collapse if I climb from the bottom up.
I need to install a line in the top and remove from the top down.
21 kv lines are 7 feet away, so there's a good chance the throwball could cross the lines.
I've seen guys who don't worry about it because they keep their throw line clean and dry and obviously untie the bag for retrieval.
On Monday I'll try it. I hate any contact with power lines, but I've seen guys with clean polyester throw line toss toward the lines. It seems preferable to having these palms collapse on me.
Jehinten
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Evansville
Often times you can get the utility company to sleeve wires to prevent risk of electrocution. I recently had this done for a crane removal, cost about $250.
If the throwline is your only concern, and not the debris coming down, then you could likely throw parallel to the lines or even throw from slightly under them, so that the weight and line move away from the wires as it comes down.
