chris_girard
Branched out member
- Location
- Gilmanton, N.H.
I am so sorry for the confusion guys, I hate it when I have technical errors like that!
This is rigging!
- Thread starter Tom Dunlap
- Start date
Phil
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Oak Lawn, IL
Its tough to write articles on a technical topic like this and keep them to an appropriate length. I appreciate you putting it out there for those of us who seldom get into situations like this. I do have some follow up questions about how your highline hauling worked.
I read Norm's article that you linked as well. (I teach a lot of classes with him and he's a great dude) In his article he showed how the loads were raised to the trolley and captured with a prusik. Once the load was hauled to its destination, a micro pulley on a tether was used to lower the load for removal from the highline/trolley. This kept the highline tensioned for the entire operation.
In your article you mention using the blue moon haul back line to "snub" the trolley so the main haul line could lift the load. Did you employ any sort of progress capture gear or just an employee working the blue moon line in tandem with the person hauling the load with the truck? Or would you slack the high line once the load was at the landing to lower it?
How high were you lifting the loads? Just enough to get it off the ground or was there some leeway to let a bit of it drag?
If these questions aren't clear let me know.
chris_girard
Branched out member
- Location
- Gilmanton, N.H.
Hey Phil, sorry for the late reply. I haven't had time to be on TB lately.
To snub the main haul line, I just had an employee at the back spar tethering the line with a large Portawrap. We were lifting loads about 20' into the air, give or take. There wasn't any drag on the material until we reached the top of the slope and landing.
To snub the main haul line, I just had an employee at the back spar tethering the line with a large Portawrap. We were lifting loads about 20' into the air, give or take. There wasn't any drag on the material until we reached the top of the slope and landing.
TheTreeSpyder
Branched out member
- Location
- Florida>>> USA
Looking at 1D cosine as 1D rope support column(s) against Load,
Load = Number of equivalent support columns X (cosine of 1 support column xTension).
If multi-legs (2) of support, for cleanest number examples must assume self equalizing (pulley on Load).
.
Cosine = 50% @60degrees deflection (2oclock) from a pure inline Zer0 deflection of 12noon column against gravity powered Load(downward).
>>120degree span in dual leg support:60 degree deflection to each side of Load line
>>10-2 on clock, load at center of clock pressing downwards towards 6 on clock for gravity powered Load
>> 'stay loose' sign(?) of span across from thumb to pinky fully stretched gives 120 degree span(da Vinci)
So @120degree span support is dual legged of cosine 50%
>>support potential equals 1/2 tension per support column(50%) x2 columns, so is the tensile strength of the rope as a known benchmark, and safety line. In loading the rope xTension factor = Load at this point of the 'balance'; even tho 2 legs sharing support equally.
.
Every degree past this 120 benchmark look at load as having leverage over the rope.
>>as takes(incites) greater rope tension than Load itself in leveraged return; and gets more upside down against rope as you go wider/flatter span.
So closed more to less than 120degree dual leg support span the rope by contrast has leverage over the Load;
>>the rope incites more force against Load than rope exerts in xTension.
until @Zer0 deflection of parallel supports to Load where has 2x Leverage over Load.
takes 200# pull to lift 400# etc. with 2 columns of support at 100% cosine of Zer0 deflection xTension factor=200# effort input.
.
Takes longer to get to 120degree from Zer0; than the higher impacting changes going from 120 to 180/flat; and the changes much more radical.
Flatten more to 160 (80degree deflection each side) cos=17.3%, tension:2879.4 from 1000# Load of 500# per leg.
Theoretically, 180flat is impossible division by Zer0 cosine, towards infinite force, so snaps or causes deflection to softer angle. So very volatile change from benchmark 120 where xTension = 1000# Load, to 2979.4 is xTension factor, then super volatile as goes from there theoretically to infinity at 180. At 89degrees deflection to each side, 1000# Load on 178degree span = 28,649 for the xTension factor. Big numbers all over, only the pattern is important.
.
These are speed line forces, the flatter the speedline is.
These are also sweat/swig rope range, where exploit the weakness in cosine(riding/exploiting the sine multiplier instead; in this range). This is where would not want to be at the end to pull on center pulley, but rather reverse to want to pull pulley to affect the ends, like bow string, sweat/swig.
.
Great article, even if don't exactly use the setup gets brain going about rope logic.
Expands threshold of understanding, to leave the more normal; deeper in own powerband.
.
edit:
Old pic(now) for hand sizing of key angles in field(on right side) and discussion on numbers with 2000# Load :
.
and wow, found this real old one for/from here, due to coloring style would think before y2k during my lower tech 'crayon years' w/MS Paint. "Team TB" after ISA bbs fold!
.
Had to hold for 3seconds for B credit, kinda went for C level Cross w/L-seat (legs out at 90degrees w/o knee bend) held for the longest freaking 3 count ever want to go thru.
There was this clock across gymnasium i stared at first as outer focus thru the ripping pain, then later to wait a legal 3(kinda tend to count real fast in head in such times).
But thru time as went cross-eyed doing so, there were 2 clocks, 1 for each arm as i lowered self in to cross, and noted a pattern with trig in school at the time.
Thus, using clock to decode cos/sine/tangent math with degree line markers on clock was born.
Over time, became easy in rigging to guesstimate using old cheat from high school(math teacher thru chalk at blackboard and walked out for a bit; but wasn't 1st time.. ) .
Cheat allows to read all around, in many lessons daily how stuff works with angles, until rope work etc. is just another math puzzle.
Without is more like on neighboring radio frequency of some info, some loss, no cohesive flow across, and much garbled, as like in computing w/wrong baud connection and get machine language with a few readable spots..
.
2extreme gears: zer0 deflection is pure column, 90degree deflection is pure wrenching.
pure column(cos=1) is no wrenching(sine=0),while pure wrenching (sine=1) has no support column(cos=0)
all points between are hybrids where allow so much direct column + deflected wrenching to suit.
Just the pattern of (force or distance)change is NOT easy equal incrementals like the degrees, but the cosine scale of change(mirrored to reverse for sine scale). At Zer0 and 90 degree outer limits only do cos+sine=1 tho.
Thru the rest of the span, cos+sine>1, quite counter-intuitively on top of the counter-intuitive of not equal increments of change per each degree walked....
.
Would not ever want to be left with this s(h)ituation of bad numbers someone posted somewhere long ago and i stole from not sure who nor when, sorry:
not sure what...... but just don't want anyone hurt, nor that mess be mine/any of
ours!
Load = Number of equivalent support columns X (cosine of 1 support column xTension).
If multi-legs (2) of support, for cleanest number examples must assume self equalizing (pulley on Load).
.
Cosine = 50% @60degrees deflection (2oclock) from a pure inline Zer0 deflection of 12noon column against gravity powered Load(downward).
>>120degree span in dual leg support:60 degree deflection to each side of Load line
>>10-2 on clock, load at center of clock pressing downwards towards 6 on clock for gravity powered Load
>> 'stay loose' sign(?) of span across from thumb to pinky fully stretched gives 120 degree span(da Vinci)
So @120degree span support is dual legged of cosine 50%
>>support potential equals 1/2 tension per support column(50%) x2 columns, so is the tensile strength of the rope as a known benchmark, and safety line. In loading the rope xTension factor = Load at this point of the 'balance'; even tho 2 legs sharing support equally.
.
Every degree past this 120 benchmark look at load as having leverage over the rope.
>>as takes(incites) greater rope tension than Load itself in leveraged return; and gets more upside down against rope as you go wider/flatter span.
So closed more to less than 120degree dual leg support span the rope by contrast has leverage over the Load;
>>the rope incites more force against Load than rope exerts in xTension.
until @Zer0 deflection of parallel supports to Load where has 2x Leverage over Load.
takes 200# pull to lift 400# etc. with 2 columns of support at 100% cosine of Zer0 deflection xTension factor=200# effort input.
.
Takes longer to get to 120degree from Zer0; than the higher impacting changes going from 120 to 180/flat; and the changes much more radical.
Flatten more to 160 (80degree deflection each side) cos=17.3%, tension:2879.4 from 1000# Load of 500# per leg.
Theoretically, 180flat is impossible division by Zer0 cosine, towards infinite force, so snaps or causes deflection to softer angle. So very volatile change from benchmark 120 where xTension = 1000# Load, to 2979.4 is xTension factor, then super volatile as goes from there theoretically to infinity at 180. At 89degrees deflection to each side, 1000# Load on 178degree span = 28,649 for the xTension factor. Big numbers all over, only the pattern is important.
.
These are speed line forces, the flatter the speedline is.
These are also sweat/swig rope range, where exploit the weakness in cosine(riding/exploiting the sine multiplier instead; in this range). This is where would not want to be at the end to pull on center pulley, but rather reverse to want to pull pulley to affect the ends, like bow string, sweat/swig.
.
Great article, even if don't exactly use the setup gets brain going about rope logic.
Expands threshold of understanding, to leave the more normal; deeper in own powerband.
.
edit:
Old pic(now) for hand sizing of key angles in field(on right side) and discussion on numbers with 2000# Load :
.
and wow, found this real old one for/from here, due to coloring style would think before y2k during my lower tech 'crayon years' w/MS Paint. "Team TB" after ISA bbs fold!
.
Had to hold for 3seconds for B credit, kinda went for C level Cross w/L-seat (legs out at 90degrees w/o knee bend) held for the longest freaking 3 count ever want to go thru.
There was this clock across gymnasium i stared at first as outer focus thru the ripping pain, then later to wait a legal 3(kinda tend to count real fast in head in such times).
But thru time as went cross-eyed doing so, there were 2 clocks, 1 for each arm as i lowered self in to cross, and noted a pattern with trig in school at the time.
Thus, using clock to decode cos/sine/tangent math with degree line markers on clock was born.
Over time, became easy in rigging to guesstimate using old cheat from high school(math teacher thru chalk at blackboard and walked out for a bit; but wasn't 1st time.. ) .
Cheat allows to read all around, in many lessons daily how stuff works with angles, until rope work etc. is just another math puzzle.
Without is more like on neighboring radio frequency of some info, some loss, no cohesive flow across, and much garbled, as like in computing w/wrong baud connection and get machine language with a few readable spots..
.
2extreme gears: zer0 deflection is pure column, 90degree deflection is pure wrenching.
pure column(cos=1) is no wrenching(sine=0),while pure wrenching (sine=1) has no support column(cos=0)
all points between are hybrids where allow so much direct column + deflected wrenching to suit.
Just the pattern of (force or distance)change is NOT easy equal incrementals like the degrees, but the cosine scale of change(mirrored to reverse for sine scale). At Zer0 and 90 degree outer limits only do cos+sine=1 tho.
Thru the rest of the span, cos+sine>1, quite counter-intuitively on top of the counter-intuitive of not equal increments of change per each degree walked....
.
Would not ever want to be left with this s(h)ituation of bad numbers someone posted somewhere long ago and i stole from not sure who nor when, sorry:
not sure what...... but just don't want anyone hurt, nor that mess be mine/any of
ours!Is there a thread on your socket mod to be seen?I saw my HOBBS socket mod!
flushcut
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Delavan, WI
I have a thread on another forum form a few years ago.
And there have been a few guys who posted and talked about it here.
But in a nut shell you measure the inside diameter on the bollard and find a 3/4” drive socket to fit in and drill and tap holes in the bollard for set screws. I also ground flat spots on the socket to help with slippage.
And there have been a few guys who posted and talked about it here.
But in a nut shell you measure the inside diameter on the bollard and find a 3/4” drive socket to fit in and drill and tap holes in the bollard for set screws. I also ground flat spots on the socket to help with slippage.
chris_girard
Branched out member
- Location
- Gilmanton, N.H.
Yup, the Hobbs socket mod is THE WAY to go with the H2, makes all the difference in the world!
I'll get some pics up on the way that I modified mine, as it's a little different than flushcut's.
I'll get some pics up on the way that I modified mine, as it's a little different than flushcut's.
flushcut
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Delavan, WI
Oh no you didn’t!
Lol
Lol
chris_girard
Branched out member
- Location
- Gilmanton, N.H.
I have another high-lead trolly rigging job coming up this Wednesday, plus I still need to post pics of my Hobbs H2 mod. Will try to get some this week.
Bendroctanus
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Springfield
Where in the ever lovin’ world do I get one of them BA mods. I need to have one. That is awesome. Who came up with that? Show yourself.
flushcut
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Delavan, WI
You better! Lives are depending on it lol.
flushcut
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Delavan, WI
BA mod ?
Bendroctanus
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Springfield
Bad ass
flushcut
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Delavan, WI
Ah! But post #26 is how I did it in a rough sort of way. I don’t have the pics on this device so I can’t repost what I did. But I am looking forward to seeing Chris’s 2.0 version.
Bendroctanus
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Springfield
I will be paying attention intently from here on out. Thanks for sharing!
chris_girard
Branched out member
- Location
- Gilmanton, N.H.
My inspiration for my H2 modification came from our own flushcut, with a slight difference in the welding of the 3/4" socket insert. Pretty easy to make one up and works great.
Our highline job went great, will try to upload some photos later.
Our highline job went great, will try to upload some photos later.
Bendroctanus
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Springfield
Looking forward to seeing that.
With welding the mod on there, can you still use the crank bar if you wanted?
With welding the mod on there, can you still use the crank bar if you wanted?
chris_girard
Branched out member
- Location
- Gilmanton, N.H.
No, but you can use it as a "breaker bar" by slipping it over the ratchet handle when you need more leverage.
flushcut
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Delavan, WI
Welded or brazed? Did you make a 3/4” drive “socket”? The reason I’m asking is because bollard is aluminum, or so I thought.
chris_girard
Branched out member
- Location
- Gilmanton, N.H.
It's a welded 3/4" socket drive insert, not brazed.
Will get some photos today.
Will get some photos today.
