The Illusion of Safety: Safe vs. Safer vs. Safer-er

[rico]

OK, let's look at this single thing with an open mind. It's true that hearing protection constricts your overall sensory awareness. That's a hazard, and we'll all agree that it is.
You can mitigate that hazard by not wearing ear protection. Eventually, you'll have some permanent hearing loss. That'd not a tradeoff most want to make. I don't.
I mitigate that by opening my ear muffs when I'm not running a saw or near loud equipment and looking around more than I usually would. It's creepy for me since I lost a good deal of useful sight a few years ago.

What did your mentor suggest for this specific hazard?





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Let me first say that I am sorry to hear about for your eye sight issues. That Truly sucks.
Tradeoff- as someone who is getting older my eyesight has really gone to shit, but its impact on my my daily life is far less than the damage I sustain from that assholes Hemlock tree.
Jake was a 60ish yr old Indian who had been logging in Alaska since he was a teenager. Anyone who has spent time logging on Indian lands back then knows there was very little safety over-site, if any. Jake spent many hours learning how to stay alive.
His basic premise was 1st to build your skill set as much as humanly possible, because it really is your first line of defense.
2nd. Rely on your senses (sight, hearing, feel, etc.). Get your nervous system and those senses locked in with your work environment. I for one can’t do this with a bunch of PPE, and is why I wear chainsaw pants and no other PPE. ( again not recommended for others)
3rd and most importantly. Don’t do stupid, lazy, unsafe shit. Do Not work with or around unskilled, stupid, lazy, dangerous people. Send em’ packing quickly.
I know all this isn’t gonna save me if and when someone does something really stupid causing really bad things to happen. That’s why I refuse to work with underskilled people. I feel unskilled/underskilled is the single biggest issue in this line of work. I also know that all that shiny PPE ain’t gonna help much when that unskilled, lazy fool does something that causes bad things to happen. There are hundreds of vids out there proving this point. (Human. Sorry bro).

Just like everyone else around here I have chosen the method that I feel gives me the best chance to get my work done in a safe, efficient manner. Like they say “let those who ride decide”.

 

[RopeShield]

In the end we are are here to share our love and experience for the work we do.
Its very unselfish. Let the young arbos, who are paying attention, know what works for one may not work for another.
Rico you gota know some will take your words and see what you do as something to aspire, to respect. Standards are shoulds not shall for many. Pass it on Bro. It's great priveldge to share withthe inxperienced. Only because you survived and able to do so

 

[rico]

In the end we are are here to share our love and experience for the work we do.
Its very unselfish. Let the young arbos, who are paying attention, know what works for one may not work for another.
Rico you gota know some will take your words and see what you do as something to aspire, to respect. Standards are shoulds not shall for many. Pass it on Bro. It's great priveldge to share withthe inxperienced. Only because you survived and able to do so

Great post RopeShield and I agree. I have never suggested anyone here approach safety like I do, thus the “not recommended for others”. I have zero knowledge of the folks here and their actual skill levels, so to do so would be very irresponsible on my part. There are clearly many reason I should never be a role model to young arborists. I get that, but I should be allowed to give an honest account of my experiences.

I have “passed in on” to people I have worked with over the years. Some have chosen the same safety path, some haven’t. That’s how it works. I still work with many of these folks from time to time, and most if not all are still kicking.

 

[jefftheswede]

CTSP#? Creds? Beefs? Buzzed? Really? Who the fuck put your charge?
Muggs is just another small business owner, running a tree service. Like many around here he walks the line between efficiency and safety, banging out the tree in front of him in a safe and efficient manner, so he can live to move on to the next tree. Hows that for creds? Keep up the good work Muggs.

yeah, I guess I was in a 'mood',
Last Thursday was a bitch,, please forgive me,
Hat's off to Muggs, no offence meant but I get cranky when some preach's it,
just saying
Jeff

 

[Marsupilaami]

Tinnitus sucks. Cheers.

 

[TimBr]

@Marsupilaami; Could you say that again? I couldn't hear you over the ringing in my ears.

 

[Jemco]

I firmly believe that technology can and will reduce the dangers inherent to the tree industry, substantially.

Even the most hostile environments can be tamed by technology.

Soon it won't be just John Deere Tree Harvestor Operators kickin back with a joystick in an A/C cab!

Time to go all NASA with high tech umbilicals n stuff!

We have the technology.......

Liquid cooling and ventilation garment - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Jemco

 

[Jemco]

I'll even go so far as predicting that within the next decade you won't have to leave home to perform demolition removals, either with or without a crane.

The lads at Boston Dynamic's could do it today if they set their minds to it.

A control station room at home, where you strap into a control harness that can orient you to all points on the compass, that controls a humanoid robot tied umbilically to an overhead crane, designed specifically for personnel suspension.

Your view, and orientation in harness, is that of the robot, so much stronger and lighter than you.

The future's not necessarily dreadful, and I'd rather pay dues to an arboreal Union than TCIA any month of the year, providing such gadgets were made available to members.

Jemco

 

[rope-a-dope]

You skipped the exosuits! I want a goddum exosuit first!

 

[Jemco]

Yeah, gonna take another two decades to bring Richard Avery's Atomic Powered Exo-Skeleton's to life!

Strapped into harness, in the control dome, a hundred feet above the little people!

Doin the Kwango Shuffle on some giant invasive galactic bug!

The Expendable Series, four of them, classic SCIFI at its best!

I'm kinda shocked it hasn't made the big screen yet, like Dune and Puppet Masters and Stranger in a Strange Land have.

Jemco

 

[climbingmonkey24]

One of the things I like about working for myself and owning my own company is I can set the tone for “safety.”

I worked for someone else before and they gave me hack because I wanted to install my climbing line in a tree instead of just climbing up it with my spurs and just a lanyard.

Or on one job there was a dead spar standing and they told me to cut it in half we couldn’t take it from the ground (we were using crane) and when I said it didn’t look safe to even be tied in to they just said you’re only a few feet off the ground so basically jump if something goes wrong.

 

[climbingmonkey24]

My intelligence is questionable then because I 1 hand when the calculated risk and comfort is appropriate for myself and I make that decision with knowing the reprocussions. I try not to as much as I feel like I can. I won't argue about being wrong or rite. It is my choice and I do so knowing my experience and abilities. Really we shouldn't be 1 handing hand saws. I've cut myself too many times with one over 20 years, but again, its an old argument!

Fact is pretty much any climber I would say will tell you they’ve one handed saws. There’s just certain situations that call for it.

That’s when you can catch on to the arm chair arborist on YouTube who troll tree videos calling climbers out for not obeying the standards. It’s something that just happens.

I’ve done it and will continue to do it. Not that I’m proud or think it’s cool or something. No the reason I say that is because I’m being realistic with the reality of tree work. Most of the times if I’m doing it it’s because I have my hand on the tree or my line for stability because it’s an awkward position. Not everything is cut and dry and textbook scenario.

Practice those “standards” that are recommended like two hands on the saw, etc. when applicable but be able to adapt and change as the situation warrants and be ok with it too.

It’s not a matter of right or wrong it’s a matter of making a decision at the time in a certain situation

Now granted, some may engage in risky behavior more regularly merely because of carelessness. Sure there are climbers and tree companies doing things simply because they’re careless and don’t pay attention to safety. But for the majority of safety oriented climbers, it’s just one of those things that sometimes not everything is done by the books.

Couldn’t agree more ! Plus makes it a lot more UNSAFE for us to be working on

I will say I’ve gotten calls by people for trees they want down and the thing couldn’t be more rotted and they say to me they knew it should’ve come down years ago yet they never got around to do it. And I’m like WTF you call now when the things ready to crumble? You didn’t think to call two years ago? Or even earlier??

In a case like that especially if the tree can’t be climbed if there’s no others to tie into, now you’re talking special equipment like a lift or crane, which is more of an expense if you have to rent them. So in that case price would probably be more.

But there’s another advantage if you own your own heavy equipment, you don’t have the costs of renting or subcontracting.

 

[RBJtree]

Interesting thread. I wasn't around for it the first time it made it's round. I don't like talking on the internet about specifics of where to draw the line on safety. The reason is, you never know who is reading this and what they will do with the information. Life has risks. I don't think of tree climbing as inherently dangerous. With the right knowledge, application of knowledge, and skill at application, tree climbing and cutting can be both safe and efficient. Lapses in judgement can happen and gaps in knowledge are something no person should think they don't have. I strive to keep an open mind and learn from everything I read, see, and experience to minimise my gaps. I've taken many chances that in hind sight I should not have and I am probably lucky to be alive 10 times over. I take the opportunity to share my experience so hopefully someone else will learn from it and not make the same mistake. They might not have my good fortune of surviving without serious injury or death. My initial training was at a place that, now that I know better, was a death trap. But no one died. I just don't know how. It's like a miracle. The older and more experienced I get, the more saftey minded I get too. And you know what? I find ways to be safer and more efficient with the end result being the work gets done fast enough. Maximum speed is not my primary goal. Adequate speed is one of my goals as is adequate safety, but when speed is not met, we live to cut another day and make up for it. When saftey is not met, the cost is far higher. That being said, I feel like some of the rules put forth as official suggested methods are not designed with 20 year vets in mind. They are designed to keep safe people who don't have the experience to foresee a dangerous situation. I my experience, it takes a long time to have that level of experience, but everyone thinks they are there before they are. I took a chance a couple weeks ago that could have killed or maimed me and even though I took barely adequate precautions which ended up saving my life as I know it, it was not safe enough even though I survived. With an additional few minutes of setup it I could have mitigated nearly all risk. My experience in that particular aspect was not adequate. (See my thread in awakinings http://www.treebuzz.com/forum/threads/tree-failure-while-i-was-climbing-it.41145/ ).
I hope every person new to tree cutting has a good teacher who can help them to identify risks and mitigate them in an efficient and productive manner. I believe a beginner should follow more precautions then someone with advanced experience and knowledge, but the don't do as I do, do as I say approach has some serious risks. Bottom line is, sooner or later, everyone will make their own decision about how to be safe enough and what that is, then pay the price if they are wrong. That price is a very real possibility in this business! One each of us should be prepared to the best of our ability to face that and in my opinion, do our best to avoid at the same time.
This post from me was mostly rambling and has no great point or lesson. Thanks for listening.

 

[Jemco]

Personally, I think it's naive to think you won't see lots of blood n gore in the commercial side of this industry, in fairly short order at a big 50-60 man outfit.

Hence the medkits n CPR n Aerial Rescue training etc etc.

Don't fool yourself, this has always been a bloody brutally unforgiving profession. I went 30 years before cuttin meself with a trimsaw, twice.

Medkits, fire extinguishers, collapseable stretchers, pneumatic leg n arm splints, Bee Suits etc....

Do this long enough, and I can pretty much guarantee you'll use every item.

IME anyway.

Jemco

 

[TimBr]

Hey, @Jemco! Welcome to the TreeBuzz forum, just in case nobody has said that to you yet. I think you are going to like it here! Take care.

Tim

 

[Jemco]

I'm an old hand here Tim, reappearing after a prolonged absence, under a new username, my other here and else where's Jomoco.

Lots of lively threads in the archives here no doubt.

Thanx for the welcome Tim.

Jemco

 

[rico]

I'm an old hand here Tim, reappearing after a prolonged absence, under a new username, my other here and else where's Jomoco.

Lots of lively threads in the archives here no doubt.

Thanx for the welcome Tim.

Jemco

When I saw the username and read a few of your posts I thought to myself "is this Jomoco?". Good to have your input around here buddy as you have remained one of my favorite characters I have encountered on the inter webs.

 

[Jemco]

My real name's Jon Mooring Rico.

Jomoco's an abbreviation for Jon Mooring Company one of my old employers used on the chalkboard for daily scheduling, and it stuck.

Work safe ole buddy!

Keep the vids of your spectacular work comin Rico!

Jemco