Stumped

R

rangerdanger

Location
Lexington, Kentucky
Well, we have another one of those dangerous trees coming up. It sits over electric boxs and is way to dead to climb. I saw it for the first time today and I noticed that one side there is a big open feild and to the sides, two other dead trees that will be removed later on. My Dad is thinking bucket, but I'm thinking climbing. I proposed to cut off all low limbs with a pole chainsaw, then climb just halfway or even part way up, and cut the top uot and pull it over with a truck. Then do the same for the bottom half. The problem is it has a lean towards the electric box( the ones that go next to a building with the genator inside). Then as a safety and a backup, string a rope between the two trees so if it does lean thatway, the rope would stop it from falling on the electric box. We're trying to get a friend and fellow form member (DMills) to come and check it out, since he has a bucket. No cranes though, as the budget is to small. So, what do you think of my idea, and the climbing part, the climber would not go up very far, 20, 25ft. And my Dad and I think the tree can handle that, so no rigging off the tree, just dropping it.
 
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one of those dangerous trees...is way too dead to climb...My Dad is thinking bucket, but I'm thinking climbing.

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Well which is it? Use a bucket unless there is no other way. Dead trees are nothing to guess at.
 
I have so many questions running through my head I am not sure where to start. How about...

Do you have any pictures?
 
Sounds like the tree needs a bigger budget. I would not use a truck to pull a top over while in the tree. If it is "way to dead to Climb" dont climb it. A tree climber around here was killed a couple years ago when the tree failed below him. It was 17' tall at that point. 25 ' is plenty dangerous.
Mark
 
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ha, vague is the best way to describe that job, spend the money, go home safe or let someone who has a bucket do the job, sucks to give up a job but know your place and what jobs you can do and go home alive
 
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Butch. Leave the Beaver alone. He's a clean cut young'n just askin' advise.
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I didn't say nuttin...
 
Pix?

A tree only has one ground connection that supports all. How is the condition of the trunk and root plate of each tree? Fruiting bodies on trunk or immediate ground area?

Dead trees can be stronger; but less elastic. That is dead can be stronger; but not rotted; 2 different categories. Can lose pull of hinge with loss of elasticity. But, if dead/sound not rotten/soft can still use push side of hinge with some dutch on one side. Each hinge face should be well inspected to see if either side/extreme of hinge has loss of firm/push and/or elastic/pull.

Internal column decay can be fairly safe. A 50% loss of internal decay/with no external violation is said to only have a 6% strength loss. Also, in hinging; it is the outer diameter of pushes and pulls that give the leveraging against side forces. Some even center punch hinges safely. After 50%; strength loss curve accelerates; 70% is bad.

Smooth taper is more important in dead than live IMLHO.

Dead trees can contain more widow makers; and less net to stop such from falling thru. Dead trees over dead trees too; especially with rope(s) running thru.

Can you clean other trees to strong skeleton; then use? Can you life line out of em? Can you rope brace trees for more stability as ballast against lean, rigging, hinging forces?

Check for bees?

Electricity is nothing to play with.

What did trees die of; and what species? How long have they been dead? Insect or woodpecker activity(eating)?

If i was going to cut top and pull with truck; i'd want to be good enough to cut tree with no dutch; and evacuate b4 pull. Also, know what i'm doing enough that it wouldn't fall apart as i was leaving it; and it would release predictably with truck pull; where i know i wouldn't have to reclimb and finish cut. Cut must be maid well enough, that the truck force doesn't weaken other part of tree to remain....

Not all weight is 'bad'. Their are 4 quadrants. Lean and/or working force upper side is 'evil' weight. Opposing side gives stability/ballast. Lower quadrants give lower CG/ stability(lower/opposing side is good/good). Removing weight in the other 3 quadrants is in ratio like adding weight to the 'evil' quadrant. Exception is lower/same side touching ground; you don't get the weight; but you can get a stabilizing leg/kickstand(if strong enough).

Try not to live up to your name so much hear pleaz... Most here have paid there dues and would not be impressed by your death.
 
All of the questions Kenny has posed above should be what you and your dad are answering in the pre start risk assessment, or pre climb assessment.
I very rarely climb into dead trees even species I have a strong working understanding of, despite being very certain of what has killed a specific tree, and the predicted strengths and weaknesses that specific species should have in the specific conditions it is in (soil type, moisture, recent weather etc...) you are still working in a structure with an enormous degree of uncertainty about it internal integrity..you cant see inside, and without biomechanical signs outside can never know about the inclusions or cracks that the truck pull might cause to fail.

If there is no means of setting a high line from other trees/structures then for me (as always without being there or even pics my judgement reflects the emphasis on safety as being paramount in my work) it would have to be removed with either a bucket or working off a crane.

If there's room why not fell the whole tree into the spare block?
 
Thanks guys. For extra safety the climber could probaly double crotch into the two other trees. All we really want to do is climb up part way, make your face cut and backcut, then pull the top over, so it does not hit the electric box, then come down, and pull the other half over. Thanks for the info also, haven't had a chance to read it all, but I will tommorrow after school. Thanks again guys
 
Thanks. We are probaly going to change tactics. We got a look at a crane rental and for three hours its only $300, so were leaning towards that. We thought it would be way up in the budget, but I guess not, so were scraping that other plan and going with the crane/bucket(maybe, but just climb part way like I said before and lift lift the top off as we cut it) Sound good??
 
i'd read up on the crane info on all forums and remember it A) is a different game and B)is only as sound as the ground it sits on.

Cranes like lifting up only with no shock loading. So must choke above CG. Still is dangerous; and takes an operator familiar with such werk, with sharp eyes and applied to trees specifically.

Best of L.U.C.K. (Labour Under Controlled Knowlege) to ya!
 
rangerdanger, I really wonder if you are legit about this, no offence meant at all if you are but.....as Kenny rightly points out if you want to lift the top section from the dead tree you will still need to get a sling or strap up well above the point that you cut the stem...or it will invert when you cut through the last bit of wood, and that is a world of scary unppleasantness that you don't want to experience!!
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Its good that a crane will fit into the budget, and good that you are confident to undertake the work but working with cranes has its own particular risks, and demands an understanding of rigging and dynamics that perhaps you don't have just yet?

Learning and experiencing on a stable healthy tree with no significant targets would be the preferrable way to get some crane miles under your belt.

If you feel like this is just someone else preaching at you well maybe you're right, maybe you do have enough experience to undertake this job.

With no photos its hard to imagine what the constraints are re targets and fell/drop zones....if this is your first crane take down get someone else in with experience and learn from their approach and technique, if its not then my advice would be drop in on the top from an attachment behind the ball, stay on the crane tip, and piece the top down till the rest can be felled.
 
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Well, we have another one of those dangerous trees coming up. It sits over electric boxs and is way to dead to climb.

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If this is your first reaction then I would not trouble yourself with climbing that tree. Use the crane to rope off of and if you have enough room to drop the top 1/2 of the tree then just block (cut/drop) it down the old fashion way.

Make sure to use two ropes off of the crane and do not lanyard in or have a break away laynard while on the spar. This way if the tree fails while you are up there then you are alive. I would also find out the electrical rating of the box and calculate the safe ground distance to be away in case of an accident. Electricty sets a circle of death.

Good luck.
 
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