Seeking safe method re crane TIP

[cory]

Was doing a huge 55t crane/bucket job taking out 5 trees yesterday, hose blew in upper boom of 75' lift at 11am, freaking elderly climber (moi) had to finish the trees by climbing ( we were shorthanded cuz my climber quit due to inadequate work hours cuz things are slow, can't blame him of course but it sucks).

I did adequately well but am not happy with part of my technique. As we know, more than once folks have tied into the ball and been lifted off the ground (in my case tying into a master link above the ball) and when they went to rapell a bit, their rope came untied (due to mental error) causing a fall. One obvious solution is to tie into the master link and then lanyard into the hook. But the problem with that imo is you can't rappel much at all with your lanyard in the hook so if you un-lanyard to rappel, the same thing could happen ( a fall due to mental error with your friction device/hitch).

So I would like a way to lanyard into the round sling which is hanging from the hook thus allowing more freedom of descent while still being tied in twice. The idea being that after I've rapelled several feet down the length of the sling, I can have full faith in my friction device etc and then un-lanyard with confidence and get to work in the canopy.

My idea is some knot or hitch that would be tied loose enough around the round sling to allow descent but if a sudden drop occurred, it would lock down onto the sling preventing a fall.

Thoughts?

 

[Stumpsprouts]

I did adequately well but am not happy with part of my technique. As we know, more than once folks have tied into the ball and been lifted off the ground (in my case tying into a master link above the ball) and when they went to rapell a bit, their rope came untied (due to mental error) causing a fall.

Respectfully, making a work flow / equipment adjustment predicated on the worry that an arborist will not be able to accurately tie a life load knot is a troubling precedent. Ye of little faith? I am sure you are very very qualified to tie the right knot, every time, and if there’s a question of it, time to bring a hank home and drill it over and over. The brain is a muscle? Kind of?

For efficiency, a spliced eye would save time, and also eliminate the need to tie a knot but I don’t like the idea of switching to that because you’re unsure the knot will be tied correctly.

I’ve climbed out of a ball a lot out of the years and you need full rappelling capabilities for work positioning once you get to the tree, so I’m not really loving this idea you got.

 

[Al_trees]

Im not sure I quite grasp what you are trying to do or why but here is my 2 cents. Climbing line through a big ass shackle with a bolt and cotter pin above the hook. Repel off of that and then lanyard in.

Trying to lanyard to a strap on the hook seems problematic and cause for stuff to get tangled up.

When our contract climber is up in the tree we move his rope bag around on the ground and pull out any sticks from the climbing line as needed. There isn't any worry about the line going through the shackle without him knowing anymore than it would come out a natural crotch unless you repelled past the end of the line.

 

[cory]

Respectfully, making a work flow / equipment adjustment predicated on the worry that an arborist will not be able to accurately tie a life load knot is a troubling precedent. Ye of little faith?

It's happened at least once, to a highly skilled arborist, which proves it could happen again.


In the tree, if you are climbing from the ground up with double lanyard technique, (your climbing line serving as one of the lanyards), you have multiple opportunities to test the connection. With the crane, you walk up to the ball, tie in and away you go. There’s no working of the hitch until you are floating above the canopy ready to rappel down into it. Lanyarding to the hook only allows a few inches of movement instead of 4-15’ of movement depending on sling length, if you were lanyarded to the sling.
Maybe something like a munter hitch idea.

And closely checking one’s attachment point etc before being lifted is of course a must-do, but mistakes happen.
Lanyarding into the hook is way better than nothing but it seems not fully adequate

If one relies heavily, or solely, on checking ones' hitch etc before leaving the ground, then why bother to lanyard to the hook?

 

[Stumpsprouts]

In the tree, if you are climbing from the ground up with double lanyard technique, (your climbing line serving as one of the lanyards), you have multiple opportunities to test the connection. With the crane, you walk up to the ball, tie in and away you go. There’s no working of the hitch until you are floating above the canopy ready to rappel down into it. Lanyarding to the hook only allows a few inches of movement instead of 4-15’ of movement depending on sling length, if you were lanyarded to the sling.
Maybe something like a munter hitch idea.

What is your hitch setup? Using a rope runner sped up crane work for me, but a while ago I used the Hitch Hiker 2 on the ball and that was about the only time I loved that device. Perfect for cranes.

You can have the ball raise up so you’re a few feet in the air, then descend on your system, till your feet are on the ground, then lower the ball again and tension up your system and go for a ride. Would that solve the issue?

 

[Lupin_IV]

I don’t think we will ever have a 100% return on dreaming up failsafes. At some point we all have to trust our skill and knowledge of the system. Maybe it’s even good for us and our brains?

Not sure what your setup with crane looks like, but I can usually rappel something like 4-7 feet with my lanyard attached to the hook. I don’t have a splice on my lanyard, so I’ve had to go back up to unhook it before but a splice would go right through after unhooking carabiner from your lanyard. (Suggested already I think) I have the arbsession crane friction saver which is pretty long compared to some others I’ve seen and still have no problem.

When you tie in from the ground, have the op cable up 8 feet, test there, go back up and ride away?

If you use spider legs, you could definitely have a Prussik somewhere on there I suppose. Figuring something out for a round sling sounds annoying. Still gonna be some unknowns tho.

Be the confident animal that got you to this point in life!

Sorry didn’t see post above!

 

[cory]

You can have the ball raise up so you’re a few feet in the air, then descend on your system, till your feet are on the ground, then lower the ball again and tension up your system and go for a ride. Would that solve the issue?

That's one thing I was thinking of, fairly easy to implement, it would take all of 15 secs.

Thanks for all the input, much appreciated

 

[cory]

Btw, I use a ZZ

 

[evo]

It shouldn’t be an issue. By ‘master link’ I am guessing you are talking about a celivs or bow shackle? Just mouse it, or use one rated for life support aka bolt with a pin. For even a little more security girth a friction saver to it so it never comes into contact with running rope and less gained friction from potentially rubbing on the ball.

 

[DSMc]

... As we know, more than once folks have tied into the ball and been lifted off the ground (in my case tying into a master link above the ball) and when they went to rapell a bit, their rope came untied (due to mental error) causing a fall...

Can you post the specific incidents you are referring to? I'm having a hard time even imagining this type of failure. Forgetting to clip in, sure, but not what you have described.

A friction system of the type we use doesn't change each time it is reset, especially a zz. A tie-in-point is either safe and appropriate or not.

 

[cory]

Hi Dave!

I don't want to say in case it isn't public knowledge. He did survive the huge fall and after medically recovering he continued to do treework but switched to a spliced eye.

 

[evo]

I don’t think there is any concern or ask for any reveling details that could lead up to anyone figuring out who it was.
My questions are:
Was he /she tied in single rope to the ball? Or Hook, if so was it a life support rated hook?

Was he / she tied riding the pick or otherwise cutting with a saw when only tied into the ball?

Was he / she using MRS/DdRT tied in above the ball? Or Hook, if so was it a life support rated hook?

Was he / she tied in above the ball using a shackle unsecured and the pin backed out?

If MRS/DdRT, did their knot fail?

If MRS/DdRT, did they make a cut and accidentally cut their line while only tied in once?

Did their rope fail due to some sort of abrasion?

Most if not all these issues can be solved but altering work practices.

 

[cory]

My recollection is that he was picked off the ground, rode to the canopy, and when he started to descend into the canopy, his knot came untied.

 

[evo]

My recollection is that he was picked off the ground, rode to the canopy, and when he started to descend into the canopy, his knot came untied.

So in that case it has little or nothing to do with the crane. It’s just what he happened to be attached to when his knot came undone.
So the mitigation is a twin system to be tied in by two independent systems at all times. While I do it frequently for positioning it’s far from a all the time kinda thing
This also brings up what knot did he use? And obviously there was a judgement error of not using a well dressed, set knot.
I always use a grapevine/barrel/scaffold when using a knot unless I’m using my tail with a closed Blake’s which I revert to a left handed bowline. Technically that isn’t legit but it’s for a secondary system.

 

[Steve Connally]

My recollection is that he was picked off the ground, rode to the canopy, and when he started to descend into the canopy, his knot came untied.

If you're talking about who I think you are, that was the case.

 

[Steve Connally]

Was doing a huge 55t crane/bucket job taking out 5 trees yesterday, hose blew in upper boom of 75' lift at 11am, freaking elderly climber (moi) had to finish the trees by climbing ( we were shorthanded cuz my climber quit due to inadequate work hours cuz things are slow, can't blame him of course but it sucks).

I did adequately well but am not happy with part of my technique. As we know, more than once folks have tied into the ball and been lifted off the ground (in my case tying into a master link above the ball) and when they went to rapell a bit, their rope came untied (due to mental error) causing a fall. One obvious solution is to tie into the master link and then lanyard into the hook. But the problem with that imo is you can't rappel much at all with your lanyard in the hook so if you un-lanyard to rappel, the same thing could happen ( a fall due to mental error with your friction device/hitch).

So I would like a way to lanyard into the round sling which is hanging from the hook thus allowing more freedom of descent while still being tied in twice. The idea being that after I've rapelled several feet down the length of the sling, I can have full faith in my friction device etc and then un-lanyard with confidence and get to work in the canopy.

My idea is some knot or hitch that would be tied loose enough around the round sling to allow descent but if a sudden drop occurred, it would lock down onto the sling preventing a fall.

Thoughts?

So while the crane is in motion you do require two points of attachment like you said. Your idea for lanyarding into a round sling is still gonna result in a bad fall even though not to the ground. If you are worried about your own ability to make sure you're tied in correctly and those knots are solid I think that would carry over to any rope work you did. Even in the tree you can mess us. To me this doesn't;t seem like a crane concern but a me thing. Maybe using 2 ropes? Instead of a lanyard, a second climbing system to allow you to never have to be on one source of suspension on rope? Long lanyard?

 

[cory]

When you tie in from the ground, have the op cable up 8 feet, test there, go back up and ride away?

This is the solution which seems best overall- simple, fairly quick, achieves the desired result which it to test the system low to the ground.

 

[cory]

Even in the tree you can mess up

Of course but I'm careful and comfortable in the tree, thus far. It's the magic lift off from the ground where I'd like some additional measure of double checking.

 

[Matias]

Frankly, I can't imagine going up on the ball without a quick check of my ropes. As already pointed out, nothing could be quicker.