Saddle disqualification at ITCC

TreeJunkie

TreeJunkie

Location
Overland Park, Kansas
I'm not sure how many of us in here are climbing on the Buttterfly saddle by Komet. But for those of us who do i know that many of us wind up alterring the bridge ourselves. I did this w/ mine. I cut the aluminum rings out and replaced them w/ 5/16 S.S. no snag bow shackles from Bosun Supply. I mounted them to the same position as the stock rings. I used hi-strength locktite and allen wrenches to tighten down the bolt. Between these to i have a Spectra sling rated at 6,500 lbs. So everything rates as high or higher than should ever be needed by any regulatory agency. If anyone has seen Tom's B'fly it's an identical setup. Well this didn't seem to matter at the gear inspection for the I.T.C.C. in Mesa, AR. I was told that because the modifications were not done from the saddle maker that this would not pass.
I know there has been much controversy about this issue in the past at the ITCC. However in the past i think these kind of mods had been allowed. I was told that they told everyone last year that these kinds of things would not be allowed in the future. My thing is when i asked to see a written rule regarding this matter, no one had anything to show me. I had spec sheets for the bow shackles from Bosun Supply and the sling was clearly marked w/ it's breaking strength. I've been climbing on this bridge set up for about 4 months. I'm telling you there is no way this thing will fail.
I know it's been allowed in the past for a piece of rope to be tied to the stock aluminum rings, attached w/ fishermans knot. As i see this this set up would have great chance of failure; due in two parts: knot failure & strength loss in the rope b/c of the knot.
In a previous post on the buzz i read that in the rule book for the ITCC there is a rule that no saddle mods. may be made that in any way reduce the strength of the saddle. I don't see how my mods. have. If anything they have probobally strengthened it significantly.
By the way it was still allowed for the rope w/ fishermans knots method of replacement. As a matter of fact the winner of the Master's Challenge Dan Stevens had the very same mod.
Anyone have any suggestions to correct this injustice?
 
The tech inspectors at TCC events are in a tough spot. There isn't any "official" training regimen. There are things that slip through inspection that shouldn't and things that aren't allowed that should be.

The milk is spilled. Your next option is to write to Jim Skiera at ISA. I thought that the issue was settled last year. You should also write to the chair of the TCC in AZ. Don't blast them, lay out your points. If you search the archives here, you'll find plenty of information about B;fly mods.

Next year, plan on coming up to MN. We allow proper modifications.

Tom
 
There was some heavy posting on this topic here a while ago. I think the gist was that you needed written approval from the manufacturer that your mod is ok.

What level of concern was raised about your replacing the rings with screw-locking shackles?

love
nick
 
no suggestions on your saddle but hey did you stick around for the masters challenge in the dark. The last guy got DQed because of no light. Something should be done to speed up things up.
 
Tom Raises a few point which i can clear up a little. the question of saddle mods is an easy one,if you were come to an ISA TCC and you climbed with a modified sadle and for some reason or other had a fall the lawyers will say it was our (ISA) fault as we knew that the saddle was'nt as the maker manufactured it. The new rules will clearly state that any saddle mods must have the makers approval before it will be excepted, if you look at it this way you can see why. In the UK at all the TCC we have tech's who are trained as inspectors who check kit this is part of our industry regulations (LOLER) yet more paper work but comes down to the same reason as above.
 
Nick, Funny thing was everyone there pretty much agreed that it seemed safe, and that the screw schackles were as well. How my saddle gets d/q but a screw link which appeared to be purchased from a hardware store is acceptable as the connection to a microascender for a lanyard: oh yeah it was also ok that a guy showed up and climbed w/ a kids skateboarding helmet, which after i looked over it; i could find no government agency compliance markings.
 
I was told in Morteal that the Butterfly will not be allowed if it had been modified unless you have Komets' written approval. This only went out to the techs, judjes, and climbers that were present. Isa chapters are supposed to conform to ITCC rules. But apparently we do not have the rules on paper yet. If you are a competitor in Pitts. you may have trouble if you are planning on using a Modified BF.
 
Tom, In regard to writing the proper people. I might have already run into a wall. Jim Skiera was there as part of the judges. I wish the judges had half as much knowledge of the equipment as the climbers do. Then i might feel a little better about having a piece of equipment disqualified.
 
Yeah somehow something needs to be done about the Masters' Challenge, Wes, the last guy to get to go, never even had a chance, it was almost dark when his turn came up. By the time he was done w/ the first two stations the judges called him down. It wasn't right, in my opinion from what i had seen he would have probobally placed 2nd, if he had the same chance every other climber had. It seems like this is becoming a repetitive problem, almost the same thing happened here last year at our TCC. I'm not sure what needs to be done for sure. It sure wouldn't be a bad idea holding the Master's challenge the following morning though, that way all climbers are fresh and light isn't a problem. This would also allow the awards ceremony to be enjoyed rather than holding it after a 13 hour day.
 
In the past I have been very critical of my local TCC and as a result have not participated in it for the last couple of years. This last years TCC was not alot better then ones in past, however I did participate as a judge. The last competitor climbed at dusk and the awards ceremony was held in pitch black darkness. Wanting to see some changes come about at a local chapter level, I decided to run for a position on the board and I won.

At our board meeting in Jan I recomended some changes which will be implemented at future TCC's. It will be a weekend event held over 2 days in the summer with an emphasis on fun and family . This way we don't have to rush through everything. Oh ya............ the day before the TCC will be a training seminar geared toward the climbing arborist. I did a little name dropping of a couple of treebuzz regulars..........:-)
 
We've modeled the timetable for the MN TCC after the old, one-day schedule of the ITCC. Registration stops at 7:15, no questions. First round whistle at 8. Rotations on the hour with a break after third rotation. The MC will start at 2 or so. Having a comp during the short days of winter will jam things a little though. But the committe owes it to the competitors to set a schedule and abide by it. Think about how frustrating it is to have someone show up late for work and have the rest of the crew waiting, and on the time clock.

Tom
 
Seems like you can go on forever on this topic. It gets very frustrating. All the local rules are based on ITCC rules, with a couple of local exceptions. Which I think is fine. It does seem to come down to the judge/judges who have to make a decision based on what they read, not see. That's not good for the most part. They do need to stick with what is written. But I beleive most of the judges dont really understand what they are looking at. Our TCC in Penn/Del has a Head judge to make any and all final decision's. Does every chapter have this as well? Anyway, the judges need to be alot more knowledgeable in all these different climbing technics.
We have judges that dont pay close attention to the climb or event. Talking with each other, looking other places and such. Theres alot of stuff they miss, good and bad.
I don't know what to tell you. Bring everything you have and adjust accordingly. Remember too, the judges are voluntary (at least in Penn/Del from what I understand).
Man I can go on forever with all the things they didnt see that could have lead to serious problems. Do you have complaint forms? I lost one year with a complaint form for dropping the tail of my rope that was missed by the judges. But not by the competitor. Who knows?????!!!!
Later
 
It sounds like your'e setting up your local TCC exactly how it should be done. Glad someone is getting some changes, it could really be made into a better experience if done properly. I mentioned making it a 2 day exp. to some of the judges in AZ but the only responses i recieved were: it's already been a long day; we're just volunteers; and that it's been a great comp. Basically beating around the point i was making... Anyhow, good to see someone doing something to make this event even better.
 
I understand that the judges for the most part are out there on a voluntary basis, and my hat is off to them for it. I just think when it comes to gear inspections; you don't need 6 guys looking over you stuff when 5 of them don't know jack. They wind up piping in a bunch of bogus opinions which wind up speaking louder than the one guy who does know what he's talking about.
 
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