rope placement while blocking down a trunk

Re: Dangerous Technique Alert!!!

[ QUOTE ]
Grover,

I question lots of things...I also realize that there is latitude and there are few sure things in this world.



[/ QUOTE ]

Tom,

I agree with many of your thoughts and ideas re climbing but this one I draw the line at.

And I have been reading your posts for years.

What could be more 'sure' than knowing that cutting the piece of wood your tied into will reduce it's strength, maybe by a small amount, but reducing its strength nevertheless, and this I will not abide by.

It's against common sense.

I'm sorry if you think it is outlandish.
 
Re: Dangerous Technique Alert!!!

I do recall a couple of incidents of climbers cutting themselves out of the tree, but I'll leave it up to Grover to prove it.

I err on the side of caution cuz I don't trust myself to remember it's up there!
 
Re: Dangerous Technique Alert!!!

Grover,

Check your email.

"This all boils down to safety factors and backups. How much/many of each is a person comfortable with?

Do you wear chainsaw protective mitts, jacket and pants when you're using a saw off the ground? How cut resistant is your climbing rope?"
 
Re: Dangerous Technique Alert!!!

His email address looks bogus to me.

His posts are quite amusing though. I always get a good chuckle.
grin.gif
 
Re: Dangerous Technique Alert!!!

The poor correlation of data here, the mixing of that data with forestry and fishing, and the plain old no-one collected the data in the first place has been and still is, the largest barrier to progressive tree regulation.

This incident, not a word in the paper or anywhere.
http://www.treeworld.info/showthread.php?t=444

But I assure Grover, I bought that bloody loud whistle for a reason and instead of yelling at climber I just give them a toot, they hear it I assure, along with the rest of the street.

I would say, and is has occured, the largest most likely to follow error would be making the back cut with the high line still in. I assure you there are plenty who have felled the head out still attached to it. This is the last part of the job, fatigue is building, it's your second trip to the top but you have done everything else. The shade is gone, this is one of the last bits the boys are waiting to drag ... you feel the hurry up psychologically ... I assure you, this technique is a time bomb and although no ANSI NAZI has written anything it's about time. You got people trying to regulate your underwear but this is OK. You want people to girth hitch their lifeline to the biner but this is OK.

Nope, I don't do it and I dont like it. I have blown the whistle at dudes who have cut the notch then wriggled around the back for the back cut and forgotten their lifeline is still in. I warn all groundies of this moment ... when the heads comes out there's a checklist, you make sure that the climber has his rope out. This was one of the most common tree injury errors here and spoken about often.

Also, how the hell is it more ergonomic, or comfortable, to cut a notch with this bloody rope in front of you in your way? You can go thru 300 videos of mine you will never see it. I use the high point to get settled where I'm going to put the notch in then I retie.

I know others do it but I just have to make sure on my watch they're careful. My concern isn't so much the spar breaking but the leaving the line in when the back cut is done.

For those of you who like this technique, stay alert and always have your flip line in so if ever something goes wrong just chainsaw ya lifeline off you.
 
Re: Dangerous Technique Alert!!!

"You degrade the whole industry with that attitude.

All those years of experience of 'getting away with it'.

Makes you feel invincible, right? "

Actually , all those fridays going to the bank is my problem . You don't survive in this business unless you get away with it once or twice . Cut a notch in a bunch of trees , tie them to a truck and try and break it , it won't happen . I have a picture somewhere on my other computer , I had to butt tie a pretty good size Red Oak log , the tree was leaning towards the house . I made the cut with an 046 , tied it up, if I lanyard in and strapped at my waist I would have hurt my lower back . I stayed tied in above and was very comfortable. I didn't get away with anything , I did the right thing . There was no way this fat pig was gonna break and I was and was very comfortable . That my muppet buddy is were all those years of experience come in , those five or six inches between your ear .
 
Re: Dangerous Technique Alert!!!

Riggs,

I don't deny that experience is important, but it is not always good experience.

I have worked with guys of 30 years experience, the wrong experience, they'd been doing it wrong for 30 years.

They have been institutionalised to the point of abject dogmatism, they will not be moved by Heaven or Earth to change ther ways, sad really.

I don't think you are like this Riggs, I believe you use a combination of new equipment, techniques and acquired skills from experience to achieve your goal of 'Git R Done'.

For you 'Git R Done' is the only mantra available, for me 'Git R Done' is a degrading philosophy that denotes a lack of respect for the industry and a lack of respect for trees.

The 'Git R Done' philosophy will take the climbing and brush pilot community a long way, it's just unfortunate that all of it will be downhill, until we end up in wallowing in an effluent of self congratulatory bile.

Life is short Riggs, and there are rare occasions when good treework is shabby and makeshift but to base an entire philosophy(Git R Done) on these rare occasions assumes that life is cheap period.

We have to develop a more positve ideology for our job.

Continuing with this hideous war cry is a joke, a joke which is at our expense.
frown.gif


Self deprecating humour is funny up to a point, but when it becomes dangerous it just seems pathetic.
 
Re: Dangerous Technique Alert!!!

[ QUOTE ]


Also, how the hell is it more ergonomic, or comfortable, to cut a notch with this bloody rope in front of you in your way?

I use the high point to get settled where I'm going to put the notch in then I retie.



[/ QUOTE ]

Good point, well made.

Finally, a sane voice.
 
Re: Dangerous Technique Alert!!!

I just got caught up reading this thread. In my OPINION the decribed technique is very safe to use, given you have the tools, training and a competency level to perform it. Some of the statments made by Grover are border line offensive to me and make very little sense. By some of the logic described we should not even use a throwball. We can not fully inspect the t.i.p. from the ground. We should advance our rope as high as we can and inspect the tree right? We also should not be rigging anything into a tree as we can not properly inspect the entire tree right? We should NEVER block down wood unless we resistogtaph the entire spar. We should also be doing a complete root crown inspection to make sure we have solid roots to support the prespribed work right? The technique described is an acseptable practice by our indusrty standards. With dealing with a living or dead organism we all have a level of risk that we need to accept. The question is how well trained and how competant are you to accept a level of risk. Some of the work I have posted on this board is extremely dangerous. With planning, training and the right people and equipment I have brought down the level of risk to an acceptible level to me. Some of the people on this board are proven industry leaders. To tell us that we are being to dangerous or working like undisaplined irresposiable people is your opinion. Show me some of the work you have done and we can all decide if it follows industies best practices. In the photo I used the technique and it was very safe.
 

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Re: Dangerous Technique Alert!!!

this technique is no more dangerous than any other technique when carried out without due care and attention
 
Re: Dangerous Technique Alert!!!

[ QUOTE ]
[...]Some of the statments made by Grover are border line offensive to me and make very little sense. [...]

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahh that's just Grover after forgetting his meds for a few days... gets a bit strident from time to time.


Blanket statements based on dogmatic ideas about hypothetical situations are simply not credible. Judgements of another person's professionalism because they don't see things the same are also simply not credible.

I've never used this technique, but if I judged that a situation called for it, I would.
 
Re: Dangerous Technique Alert!!!

Grover , straight up . I'm not kidding you . I 'd make you look sick in a tree . You have to understand when you talk to me that I am bringing about ninety years of knowledge to what I have learned. My fathered just retired , he is over seventy years old . His business he started with and was started in 1927 has just ended. All the bull crap you chime on is an insult . My father and all his workers are all still living , they taught me how to remove trees and be able to be with my family for as long as I am healthy. I have been doing tree work for as long as I've been alive , and you think I can do it safer ? I told you where I am coming from , where are you coming from ? I have more than enough pictures and video to back me up , what do you have ? I'm not the luckiest person alive , I just been taught by people who read trees like a book , and maybe some of them never read a book . Never never land is for Peter Pan. I don't have time for _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ !
First word is an A laast word is an S
P.s.had to change the post to discredit the poster too.
 
Re: Dangerous Technique Alert!!!

[ QUOTE ]
...In my OPINION the decribed technique is very safe to use, given you have the tools, training and a competency level to perform it. Some of the statments made by Grover are border line offensive to me and make very little sense. By some of the logic described we should not even use a throwball. We can not fully inspect the t.i.p. from the ground. We should advance our rope as high as we can and inspect the tree right? We also should not be rigging anything into a tree as we can not properly inspect the entire tree right? We should NEVER block down wood unless we resistogtaph the entire spar. We should also be doing a complete root crown inspection to make sure we have solid roots to support the prespribed work right? The technique described is an acseptable practice by our indusrty standards. With dealing with a living or dead organism we all have a level of risk that we need to accept. The question is how well trained and how competant are you to accept a level of risk. Some of the work I have posted on this board is extremely dangerous. With planning, training and the right people and equipment I have brought down the level of risk to an acceptible level to me. Some of the people on this board are proven industry leaders. To tell us that we are being to dangerous or working like undisaplined irresposiable people is your opinion. Show me some of the work you have done and we can all decide if it follows industies best practices. ..

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.
 
Re: Dangerous Technique Alert!!!

The secret to Grover is to put him on IGNORE.

He's awesome, then.
 
Re: Dangerous Technique Alert!!!

C'mon now Butch , you're old school . Have you ever been tied into a tree and notched it ? did it ever fail you you died ? Does grover scare you ?
 
I believe being tied in overhead when cutting the notch may be safer than just being on spikes and a lanyard. Having a spike come out while making a notch can be quite dangerous and being tied in over head makes kicking out less likely.

If the saw were to get away from the operator it is less likely to cut a lanyard and an over head tie in point than it would be to cut a lanyard and girthed climbing rope at waist height.

Reduced climber fatigue is another saftey factor in favor of being tied in over head.
 
Re: Dangerous Technique Alert!!!

[ QUOTE ]
If it wasn't for our hosts I'd make you eat those words.

[/ QUOTE ]

It might be time for you two to take it out to the alley...ha ha ha :)
 
Re: Dangerous Technique Alert!!!

I don't mean for it to go that route , it just seems to me that "grover" trys to say that tree work that is not done his way is unsafe and careless . Explain to me how doing tree work in the Philadelphia area for twenty plus years with a get r done attitude will get you anywhere. This is a dangerous job and the trees are large , maybe not the size of West Coast trees , but their are some monster trees . These trees are behind million dollar mansions , in very rich neighborhoods . A work day to me is , every body is safe , the homeowners are happy , the check is there . I don't think "grover " you could hang with me , even if I played your safety game . I'll tie in twice (three , four times if it would make you happy) , cut with two hands on the saw (at all times) shut power off (the whole neighborhood) , play the lottery( since I'm lucky) and hold on to your gas can because I'll even send a I miss you card to axeknot.
 
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