Rigging "shortcut"?

nyclimber

nyclimber

Rigging \"shortcut\"?

Any thoughts on using a carabiner attached to the tip of a rigging rope (with fixed bowline) and snapped onto itself plus half hitched as opposed to tied rope <u>only</u> using a traditional running bowline and half hitch for lowering large pieces on the main stem (through block)?
This setup doesn't seem to be using the full strength of the rope, but I want to know what you all think. Is this acceptable? I'd never seen it before


I attached a drawing of what i am describing. The purple is the carabiner
 

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Re: Rigging \"shortcut\"?

Carabiners are never meant to be shock loaded. Are you in your described scenario? Possibly, possibly not.

On small diameter stems the carabiner may be torqued to the side. Are you doing that? Depends on the diameter and the side loading caused by slack.

With a perfect set up you would be fine, granted the carabiner was rated accordingly.

In the real world, I have found little advantage to negative blocking with a carabiner at the termination end of the rigging line. I can tie a running bowline in my sleep, with either hand, behind my back, upside down in less than 6 seconds. (Underwater too. Trust me, it was a drinking bet!). It never fails, side loads, or cares about shock loading.

Now when it come to a rigging scenario where the block is always above the load, then a carabiner is the next best thing to sliced bread. Although a grapevine knot as termination is far superior to a bowline.

Hope it helps,


Tony


Tony
 
Re: Rigging \"shortcut\"?

"Carabiners are never meant to be shock loaded."

That is about the most false thing I ever read. I do however agree that biners shouldnt be torqued or side loaded against the stem. Either put a bowline in the end of the rigging line, or knot a rigging ring, https://www.treestuff.com/store/catalog.asp?item=1347, onto the line. Choke the piece to lower with a endless loop/sling with a biner on it, clip the biner to the ring cut and lower.

It is easier for the ground people because if you have 3 slings: you set a sling (#1), cut, it goes down, they unclip it, clip on the reserve sling (#2), and send it up. Meanwhile you have already set the other sling (#3) and are ready to cut. The groundsmen can process the brush and remove the sling and get ready for the next piece.

This system works really well for me.
 
Re: Rigging \"shortcut\"?

Instead of biners I sometimes use old double locking rope snaps. There are several still around in the bucket. When they get dinged or bent they go into the scrap steel bucket.

For the first half of my career I rigged out wood with a non-locking rope snap w/thimble spliced into three strand. Hemp at first...then Safety Blue. Over time I learned the little caveats and cautions with this system.

Norm Hall was the first one to write about the Knotless Rigging System that I'd been using too. Choke a sling around the chunk and clip into a snap on the rigging line. This is what 223 is describing.

Another advantage of Knotless is that its rare that the snap/sling attachment ends up on the bottom of the chunk. If you use a snap/biner to choke it no matter what you do the attachment point will ALWAYS be on the bottom, buried in the mud and crud.
 
Re: Rigging \"shortcut\"?

233, would you mind attaching a photo of what you are describing, or take a look at the pic I attached to my post and describe where the rigging ring and sling would go as opposed to the setup in the pic...
 
Re: Rigging \"shortcut\"?

223, Tony is right, biners are not meant to be shock loaded. Nor anyother part of our equipment. I have not seen in any owners manual for any piece of equipment it saying that its ok to shock load it. (on the contrary it normally says something to the effect of shock loading should be avoided). It never says "this device can with stand a shock load force of X."
We as the end user know where the limits of our equipment is, and calculate our rigging to fit the capacities of that equipment. Yes, we shock load, its unavoidable but we keep the forces within the safety factors.

I do like the sling set up you are describing, for high rigging points and many limbs. I like to put a spliced eye in place of the ring though.
 
Re: Rigging \"shortcut\"?

223,

I think we just have a misalignment of terms. By shock loading a carabiner I mean that a slack line is through it, a load is dropped, then then line tightens or bears load very quickly.

This is different than just loading one heavy i.e. snugging a static load tight, then cutting. This scenario is just a function of SWL.

In most cases rigging with a carabiner over the block the carabiner will stay loaded. However, the possibly exists you it to loosen, then reload. Small chance, but it is there. Most likely the shock load at retightening will not cause a break, but actual side load. This can also happen as the log bumps and drags down the stem. Side loading and the gate becoming damaged are my biggest concerns. (I will post some pics when I get on my other computer).

It only takes one time to ruin a day, week career or life.

The ring idea is a good one, but again I would avoid a connecting link with a gate. Simply tie a half hitch then pas the line through the ring and top hitch with the created loop. Or girth the sling to the ring, then girth the sling around load.

I would also use a cinching type knot for the same reason ANSI requires one for climbing line terminations.

Tony
 
Re: Rigging \"shortcut\"?

Here is what I would do!

Option One.


327613-RingandSling128.jpg
 

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Re: Rigging \"shortcut\"?

[ QUOTE ]
In the real world, I have found little advantage to negative blocking with a carabiner at the termination end of the rigging line. I can tie a running bowline in my sleep, with either hand, behind my back, upside down in less than 6 seconds. (Underwater too. Trust me, it was a drinking bet!). It never fails, side loads, or cares about shock loading.

Tony

[/ QUOTE ]

Tony, we need to drink more together and do some fun bets like this.
beerchug.gif
beerchug.gif


And to keep on track with the poster. I never use a biner. Seems like a wear link. Just KISS.
 
Re: Rigging \"shortcut\"?

Here's what I do. Simple using spectra tubular webbing with some mean industrial stitching using sailmakers spectra thread. Where the webbing is stitched it has 3 overlaps. This will hold pieces weighing 400 to 500 lbs, and maybe more depending on a few variables. I use the ISC bigdan posi biners. Rated at 50Kn. Not really used in negative blocking I stick to my marline and running bowline combo.
 

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Re: Rigging \"shortcut\"?

Using a carabiner in that application is NOT recommended. It is quick, but will eventually fail.
For knotless rigging, always use steel connecting links
grin.gif
. DO NOT shock load them. I prefer to use locking ladder snaps spliced onto the line. Locking ladder snaps are easily opened with a 'gloved' hand. For attaching to the wood, I prefer spliced loops, (3/8's" NE filament dacron). They will tolerate abrasion better than hollow braid and can be spliced in 8-10 minutes.
See atachment.
 

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Re: Rigging \"shortcut\"?

Norm that looks like a fine setup. I thinks when I go to the states at month end I will pick up some hardware and rope and try that set up out. What loads will that manage. The three strand I would use would be treemaster 1/2" as I got that laying around and this system is mostly used on the brush during removals at least for me. I will be in Mass just a stones throw away from NE ropes. So that should work out well.
 
Re: Rigging \"shortcut\"?

I know you don't leave those logs just laying around the house for the wife to pick up swing. My girl would kick my a$$.

I like that idea for small pieces tho.
 
Re: Rigging \"shortcut\"?

Boy Isaiah, don't leave wood in the house the saws and all the rigging and climbing gear are taking up too much space. I have a big open lot that I pile only clean hardwoods that will be chipped and sold to be used as mulch in the rich folks gardens. I borrow my friend's bandit 250. That log was in the pile and will be quartered so it won't jam the 12" sucker. That's 11" but it's not my chipper so 10" max. I been thinking about the biner being choked on big heavy long branches, and to tell the truth I been doing that with treemaster and now double easterlon for going on five years and haven't lost a piece or busted a rope, and I am no telling anyone to do this as I am no teacher. I can tie a running bowline fast but the groundie just needs to unclip and I haul back up. This is not when negative blocking. I rig nearly everything as there is always some damn obstacle around in the places I work. Here is a picture of a twenty five foot piece of healthy Mahogany natural crotched with a five year old choked biner and marline hitch combo. That limb easily weighs 800lbs as it even dragged my groundie foward a fair bit with 1 1/2 wraps. Mahogany is a dense heavy hardwood. These trees I am always cutting and rigging this way. Only on removals will I break out the blocks and use the maline and running bowline when taking bigger pieces. I natural crotch whenever I can with nice high TIP's .Especially in hardwoods where the cambrium can withstand it.
 

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Re: Rigging \"shortcut\"?

NYClimber,

I dont have a picture handy but its pretty simple... take a rigging ring and tie it to the end of your rigging rope.

Take a sling/loop runner/etc (you can take a pice of rope and tie it in a loop for all it matters)... Put a biner on it. Choke the sling around a log/branch with the biner on the end of the sling. Clip the biner to the rigging ring. CUT.

Here is a picture from one of Swingdudes posts @ the treehouse.

Replace the biner tied to the rope with a rigging ring. Put the biner on the sling and clip it to the ring.
 
Re: Rigging \"shortcut\"?

Another pic of the Maxim runners. Courtesy SingleJack
 

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Re: Rigging \"shortcut\"?

[ QUOTE ]
What loads will that manage.

[/ QUOTE ]

The NE Safety Blue 3 strand has an ABS of 6,500 lbs., so no more than 650 lb. loads, static.

FYI, I have had much better results with NE Safety Blue 3 strand, than Samson 'TreeMaster', as it doesn't hockle nearly as much on the large Porty.

The nice thing about using loops is, they are 'choked' at a different point each time (no wear points). You can remove multiple limbs at the same time, i.e., conifers. I've lowered 5 conifer limbs at once.
 
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