Propaconizol save more trees

Re: This is my last post

It seems like both are very knowledgeable people to keep around! I'll be honest and say that I don't "get" much into the pesticide/fert side of trees, but this thread has sure drawn me in!

love
nick
 
Re: This is my last post

OK some one a lot smarter than me should start a thread on the benefits of using propiconizole for the treatment of DED
 
Re: Missed the point This is my last post

The thread started about saving money and saving elms with propiconizole, It was never intended to settle old scores. I apologize to the buzz for my part in diverting your attention from the information I have to share.
TP has edited out all his comments, I will leave mine posted as I believe the issue should not be swept under the carpet.
 
Dave, Thanks for the help

Dave,
Thanks for the discussion. I enjoyed the debate immensely. If the other posts were still visible on line, you could assure yourself, when the ad hominem attacks began you won the debate. I'm sure losing you as customer really hurt.
{From dictionary .com -- ad hom·i·nem Audio pronunciation of "ad hominem" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (hm-nm, -nm) adj. Appealing to personal considerations rather than to logic or reason: (Debaters should avoid ad hominem arguments that question their opponents' motives.)}

Since you are the owner one of the Midwest's largest treecare company with a huge PHC department you are uniquely quailfied to offer a helpful point of view. I appreciate your expertise in helping others build their companies by pointing out ways to protect the bottom line. It's the missinon of the CAC as well. Keep up the good work, see you at the MN Festival of Trees tomorrow!
 
what is the real truth?

Being from Minnesota and knowing all parties involved
Jim Walsh is the last person who should chime in on this. Weren't you fired from tprossers company? Don't you work for tnt tree? I thought I knew you as having a little more honesty in you.

I think everyone involved in this thread is acting like a bunch of idiots. I commend tprosser for seeing the error of his ways and taking his posts off. (although he is still an idiot for partaking in this)

I agree that this thread is childish and persoanl issues taken off line - for your sake.

TNT - on one of your posts you said you have no ax to grind - from reading your posts i disagree. You are too agressive and i know the truth. you have a lot to gain from tprossers company gettting bad press. but it only makes you look like a jerk.

Now stop it all of you - we are all brothers in trees

I have 1 major question - please provide published peer reviewed research? any of you.
Without that - claims of efficacy or not for any compound for any reason is crap. Alamo has been around for a very long time - why now is it suddenly working? Where is the RESEARCH!!!!
 
Re: Who is Arbordude?

Dave, Jim, Tom, Arbordude et al,

Can any of you point me to any of the research done to show how well Alamo works on DED?

It seems like there must be an elephant in the room that no one wants to acknowledge. Or, maybe there isn't any research to show that Alamo works on DED. Even though I never have and most likely never will, inject trees, I do like to keep up to date about the treatments available.

When I read posts from companies that are competitors it quickly becomes ugly. The pokes and jabs have no place on Treebuzz. This is a place where we expect people to leave the company shirts at the door. If you have things to settle,please take them down the street.
 
This is what I found. Is there more?

When I googled Propaconizole alamo I found this page:

http://www.bugwood.org/

Bugwood is based at U of Georgia which, to me, seems to be a credible source. I've never known Kim Coder to not run a tight ship.

With this info:

* Propaconizole (Alamo)
o Primarily used as a therapeutant for trees affected by oak wilt
o Application is by injectioin which can cause damage to the tree
o About a 75% effectiveness on treated trees, but only effective against current infection, no prevention/protectant benefit

I realize that this page is five years old but can you comment on any differences?

http://tinyurl.com/bkdsx
 
Re: This is what I found. Is there more?

Oh my, and to think that one of them still hasn't deleted his comments? Please smack me if I carry on like that when I grow up.

The switch to generics has saved us a lot of money over the years, but it creates headaches just the same. When we stopped using Roundup, we first used Razor by Riverdale (now NuFarm) until we realized that it needs a surfactant since Roundup includes it. Then we switched to Touchdown and have never looked back, in fact, I buy the stuff by the 15 gal tote. Even then, I didn't know they were the same product until I found out that even though the active ingredient concentration in Touchdown much less than Roundup, the molecule of glyphosate in Touchdown is more effective.

My same concerns come to the table with other generics. Is there a difference in the carrier? Is the molecule itself the same? Are the new manufacturers maintaining the same level of quality?

Like Nathan said in the other thread, are we going to be experimenting on our customer's trees? I would rather not unless they agreed to it and were getting some kind of discount! Those kinds of questions are what I ask, and I take it more seriously dealing with trees than with weeds. With weeds you can just go back over it again until they die because my contracts are to kill weeds, however many treatments it takes. With a tree injection, either soil or trunk, I don't have that option, especially if we're using invasive techniques with expensive products and time-consuming procedures.
 
Re: This is what I found. Is there more?

Yup, I bit the bullet down here and brought in a trusted injecting contractor to calculate and treat 33 giants, all in proximity. He did reduce the dose by 25% on my recommendation (the state forester still pushing 30ml per dia/inch).

In rapid succession, I had four more calls to recommend treatments before the chance to observe the intitial responses. A grand total of 98 trees, representing virulent infections and losses within 5 to 11 meters.

This was in May/June this year. Of the 98 trees there are 24 total losses and as of yesterday (Sunday) 14 more are 30% symptomatic, 4 have 5% active symptoms on upper reaches.

Rough calculation drawn on experience (now 15 years in the wilt debacle) suggests that given the overall situation and averaging for infection differences in most areas with all types of wilt/affects...if I had done nothing it would have performed in the same outcome.

So I'm back to treatments based on nutritional intervention, modified slightly to include hormone signalling, pseudomonas supplemented to soil, and pH altering.
 
Re: This is what I found. Is there more?

Let me ammend that to be fair:

the bill for injection services (I didn't charge for the consult or percentage of the treatment invoice) was 10% less than the standard costs of ALAMO, a positive incentive for those homeowners who ordinarily would forgoe treatment based on costs.

Some would argue that a second treatment would result in higher survival rates, but with progression of symptoms it's now moot nor would it be an applicable option given the time from initial Tx's.

Just my input on the new label, others may have more positive results Nathan.
 
Re: This is what I found. Is there more?

Reed - you're not talking about QualiPro, right?

I'm on my second mini-drum. No problems yet, but one packet was broken in this drum. Everything else appears to be the same - I'll see how the trees look in the summer and whether the leaf hoppers are knocked out or not.

Spring Valley couldn't figure out how to get it shipped directly to me, so it took 3 weeks to get the second drum, so I can't wait for Carlin Sales to start stocking it.
 
Re: This is what I found. Is there more?

Yes, this was all done with the QualiPro label. Based on these and four other large treatments in the past, QualiPro and Alamo (over a decade of observation and experience) are now omitted from my consideration list of viable treatment tools unless I reserve the option to prescribe a co-treatment including a 80% reduction on the injection dose alongside nutritional ammendments that have overwhelmingly succeeded in the past, based on statistical survival rates. Using these techniques, I'm never certain which tool succeeds, but the survival of the trees are the fundamental objective and we're growing pretty tired of the varied claims from official sources.

Are we playing with a silver bullet? I no longer advocate our treatment regimen nor commercially push our regimen. There are infection centers and particular clients I concentrate on and treat them according to our own results from the past.
 
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