Owner/operators...balancing time ???

climbhightree

climbhightree

Branched out member
Location
Lebanon, Pa USA
How much time do you work a week total? between doing actual work, estimating, and office work. How many men/crew do you have?

I run one crew with 3 guys. We can all climb and do most trees. And then most of the day on sat. I am out estimating. Then I have to find time to do office work and just unwind. (took off today to catch up on things in office).

Come spring I have been thinking about adding another crew...mostly part time. I would be on this crew, so that I would have more time for estimating etc.

I am just wondering how you other guys do it...or if you all just put in crazy hours.
 
Crazy hours here, but i do alot of commercial work as well which in the uk involves serious amounts of pointless paperwork duplication including method statements, risk assesments etc.

I'm out the door at 7 sorting kit, the boys turn up at 715 and are back by 4 usually. I'll either work with them or be doing paperwork. If I'm working with them I goto the office in the evening to do paperwork.

12 hour days 5 days a week i reckon.
 
Easy 60 hours here, most staff are clock watchers who want to leave the raking and cleanup to the boss and go home early!

Yesterday my Mrs had to empty the truck coz the new (3 day been here) worker wanted to argue about going to the tip ... so he took the full truck straight home and my Mrs then tipped it out ... he was home at 2.30pm!

The day before same ... he took off and didn't even help load the tools back in, again 2.30pm.

The first day (Monday) was is biggest, he wasn't a happy chappy, we finished 3.30pm ... and in the whole time the Kanga has lifted everything, not one unaccessable to Kanga job, poor hard done bys.

Good help is hard to find, I always wonder that the reason people are out of work and apply for a job is that there is something wrong with them and they're a PITA. 90% of the time I am right. They're not unemployed ... they're unemployable.
 
[ QUOTE ]

Good help is hard to find

[/ QUOTE ]

Ekka, you ever use sub-contractors?
Good climbers/workers normally work for themselves eventually.
You might pay more for them, but I guarantee they do 3 times as much work and thrice as fast as a dud employee.
you also get peace of mind knowing you have a decent quality climber/worker on the jobsite.

I've seen all kinds of treeworkers- my favourite is the one who always manages to look busy but actually does sweet F*** All.
A rare breed indeed, very sneaky.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Good help is hard to find, I always wonder that the reason people are out of work and apply for a job is that there is something wrong with them and they're a PITA. 90% of the time I am right. They're not unemployed ... they're unemployable.

[/ QUOTE ]


I talk to folks from all over the world. When I hear this 'song and dance' from folks (as you have been saying for so long Ekka), I have to say that good people go to good people.

Most employee problems are directly attibuted to the person in charge. Be a good employer, and you will have good help.

The folks who are with me have changed over the years, but I can honestly say that the number of helpers like what you describe EKKA, is maybe one person in the last 15 years. And that person came to me for short time work anyways.

I know it is not an Aussi trait to be a bad/lazy worker, I have met way too many great Aussies for that to be true. Maybe is it you, Ekka?

It is not hard to change our professional behavior. Their are many different resources available to help with creating a better work place- ya just gotta be willing!

I run a small crew of 3-4 folks. I work every job and am on the job 3-4 working days a week. Weekends & evenings/ suppertime, that is when I am bidding or doing paperwork or fixing something or going and getting equipment, or running general errands or expounding my theorys on the internet :)
Self employment is a lot of work. Not many are suited for it, some thrive on it.
 
Hey Frans

Your maybe is exactly that ... and wrong.

Maybe the Aussies that travel are the motivated ones that have goals and can save money and get ahead ...

How many times have you started a new worker, it's his first day, you actually rang him at 6pm the night before to confirm everything to which he agreed but he didn't show?
 
[ QUOTE ]
Most employee problems are directly attibuted to the person in charge. Be a good employer, and you will have good help.

[/ QUOTE ]

I couldn't agree more. Like attracts like. ;^)
 
While living and working in an area with some of the greatest diversity in the entire world, I have had the honor of working with all kinds of folks from just about every culture & race you could name.

I still dont see any difference between races that matters in terms of who is a better worker, or for that matter, any real difference at all.
People are people. It is people who have made my business thrive, they are the ones who help me with my jobs and it is those same people who benifit from the jobs we do as a company.
My business would not be a business without good help.

Because I understand the value of good help, I consider the people who work with me an extremly valuable and essential part of my business- not just workers.

To offer some constructive criticism, I would say treat the folks who come to you looking for a career as assets, treat them like you would want to be treated, pay them well, offer incentives short term and long term, be respectfull always, and keep in mind that they are wanting the same things that you want out of life.

[ QUOTE ]

How many times have you started a new worker, it's his first day, you actually rang him at 6pm the night before to confirm everything to which he agreed but he didn't show? Hey Frans, how many?

[/ QUOTE ]

Lots of times folks have called in sick, but I cant think of that situation off hand. I still find it hard to believe what you are saying: you live in an area that has no good people at all.
If that were true, then how did YOU come from the same area? Are you one in a million?

Here is a picture of me, "just another boring day at the office" :)
 

Attachments

  • 61155-IMG_0365.webp
    61155-IMG_0365.webp
    315.2 KB · Views: 184
Hey, Frans photo -
Guy on left is saying, "how you gonna do that next bit?"
Frans is saying, "forget that next bit, lets take a photo we can post on treebuzz,it'll look soo coool man with all our shiny new ropes, yeahh we is cool"
B*LLSH*T!
 
This is a very different place to USA and even other parts of Australia ... very different.

When I say workers dont arrive for there first day I mean exactly that. We even used an agency and had the agency find 2 new starters to arrive at 6.30am here. Our idea was one might show.

Guess what, none showed. we rang the agency and they were gob smacked. We rang The Dept of social Security to dob these dead beats in ... guess what, you cannot dob them in!

Brisbane is the fastest growing metropolis in Australia. whilst the national average unemployment rate is a mere 4.8% this region is well below that. About 75,000 people move here a year from down south to escape the rat race and high prices and poor weather.

Also remember people here get by on the benefits, the benfits if there's wife/kids involved can exceed pay!!!

Then you have an extremely competative market place, you bet they'll be getting lots of other bids coz you aint the only guy in town with a chainsaw and no competitors. This means that you need to run fast and smart ... in most companies. So slow deadbeats leave the industry or go employer to employer hoping to find a soft target.

Here is a Govt graph of the unemployment situation, even by district. Just click on the coloured zones for more details on specific districts ... even the most deadbeat dense areas have low unemployment.

http://www.workplace.gov.au/lmip/EmploymentData/Brisbane/

Now part of the benefit thing is that people must apply or try to get work ... so they BS the bosses and the govt agency. Unlike some small country town no-one knows anybody personally so they get away with it where as in a smaller place they'd soon be exposed and reputed.

Now a couple with 2 kids on the dole will get around $600 a week tax free for staying at home! Generous hey.

Why would you go to some dumb assed sweating hot tree lugging job?

But what happens is the man and mum claim seperately, he gets the dole of around $230 a week, she gets the single mums thing at around $350 a week plus rent assistance and health care card so medical stuff is cheap. So this way even if he declares the odd job etc they dont really need to work and she's insulated from a cut off by the govt dept on her benefits.

I am not so bitter, dont confuse straight shoot'n B&W chat with anything else. I tried to sell my business back in May but as usual not one enquiry, tree businesses aren't worth chit here coz any shmuck can start one ... as they do. At the time I had a lucrative full time offer but I wasn't walking away from what I had ... so dont confuse sales of businesses with getting out of the business. Look at Tom Dunlap for a good example
wink.gif


You then have good people who already have jobs and are happy where they are ... they're not really the ones who apply unless something happened at their workplace like a new owner or business lost a contract.

Many good people get proper jobs with .... and listen carefully to this coz it's the truth

# 4 weeks annual leave which pays a 17% leave loading coz you are on holidays

# 8 days a year paid sick leave

# 9 day fortnights for council workers

# Matched superannuation payments for council workers

# Fulltime work and pay regardless of quiet times or weather

These are things a small tree business in such a heated market cannot offer, so if you are good why bother even trying to downgrade to a smaller tree business.

What you'll find is you become the training ground for newbies who know nothing ... and as soon as the newbie starts to know something then they piss off for the above benefits.

I had a good guy here recently who is on another forum, Brother Colin. He liked it here, learnt more than any other employer could teach him but left coz the new employer could offer him 5 days a week, simple as that. The ole bigger fish eating the small. But unfortunately I dont think poor ole Colin is gonna be back on his feet for some time with anybody due to a rock climbing accident.

Then there's the other mentaility which is so dominant ... why should I work for someone when in a day on my own job I'll make more money than he pays me all week? These are gold diggers (speculators) who show when they're broke.

So as you can see it's a very different ball game, basically if you dont have a larger business with stable govt contracts and pay the benefits then you'll be a little exposed.

I'm not 1 in a million, I'm one in 6 billion. You'll never find another like me and for that matter you either.
grin.gif
 
Oh yeah, seriously now - Ekka that vid you took at the junior school, teaching the kids about tree pruning, thats
what more arborists need to do.
Educate the kids about trees, the adults are too far gone.
Nice one Paul Hogan!
wink.gif
 
They were very good points. A very similar situation to over here. Our legislative climate on the back of litigation makes it a lot of effort and cost when hiring employees - sub contractors or not. Insurance premiums are very high and employers liability essential for subbys. Only you have to state exactly the subbys and have them sign your health & safety policy. That makes it impossible to work if your key guys don't show up. I could go on and on, Ekkas rant is born of frustration. My business isn't just contracting, I enjoy the variety. That means I can't have an employee, in this remote area, because I couldn't guarantee full time work. Doesn't mean I should hang up my harness. We can't just go out and do tree work with hired help, they have to have the skills - two climbers must be on site at all times. Everyone on site has to show they are trained.

As an example, the latest study of arb in the UK showed around 12,000 hard core pros. Probably double with part time landscapers, and then there are the 'fly by nights'. 41% are owner operators with less than 9 employees, 43% owner operators with no employees (use sub contractors), the rest are big utility type companies that have many employees. The point to the study is, because of employment law, insurance, litigation, legislation, the skills shortage and mis-guided training and ed (people getting tickets and diplomas thinking they can earn what they want, despite not having any experience or wanting to put the time in to get it before pay rises because they aren't productive), the industry is on the verge of a skills melt down.

This is actually true of many trades, because of the governments policy on higher education. They seem to think that by lowering academic standards so all can gain a degree, is what the country needs, rather than skills like plumbing, carpentry, Arboriculture etc that take time and dedication for lower pay. Because everyone is sold on the material dream.

The reality is, good guys can't find good guys to work with, because they aren't attracted to the hard work and lower pay, or have any connection with the outdoor/natural life. Kids are raised in a virtual material world, I was raised as a farmers son. Agriculture is on its knees, so I don't come across many who are willing to put the effort in. When I do and train them, they are in so much demand, they find it hard to give me the time. So you pay them more. Then they start getting their own work. Which is OK, its whatI did. Its not high end like mine, so they're not competitors, but I haven't got my staff anymore???
 
in this instance I can verify what eric is saying. In my time as a contract climber in Brisbane, I met more deadbeats and noshows than anywhere else in the world. As a climber, I ended up going out and doing dismantles and fells on my own, as the company I worked for couldent get staff. Or I'd go out with the company owner and climb while he chipped. there would be 2 other chipper truck rigs in the yard because the staff hadent turned in.
Coming from a working family background, I thought nothing of working late to get a job raked up and finished. My old boss told me he had anyone willing to work after 5pm.

My only tip is try and get either a kiwi or a half caste maori working for you. those guys are like the irish over here.
 
O.K. I thought about this for a bit.
Here is my take on it.
Should I live in an area like that, seems to me there are a couple of different approaches I could take.
The idea being to turn this situation around to my benifit.

Here is the reality as learned from ekka and others:

Market flooded with low priced contractors.
So the low price seeking homeowner has a virtually unlimited choice in who to pick to get the necessary work done.

For the folks who want quality work done, there are multiple higher end companies who have the resources and personell to do the job right.

O.K.
So it is a challange.
In order to actually make it in a market like this, and still do tree work, I would prob. do a few different approaches:

1. provide a specialized tree service that is not readily available. Market that service very hard.
For example, buying a tool no one else has. Like an resistograph, or one of the better decay measuring devices. Focus on those clients who have a need to cover their liability. Like municipalities, hotels, anyone who depends on the public for their income. Coupled with that service would be report writing & consulting services of course.
This income stream would not depend on having employees as I would do all this myself.
2. Maintain my tree service but again, focus on a very narrow clientell. Cultivate those clients who can and will pay me for my work.
I would also purchase the necessary tools and equipment to minimize my labor needs.
3. Using this special equipment (all terrian crane, loader, tight access truck, grinder, SOMETHING that not many competitors have), I would then approach related services (landscape companies, tree companies, surveyers, builders, municipalities, roofers, pavers & graders, general contractors, Real Estate companies, etc, etc.) and offer my services to them.
If this market is as tough as you say, then the other companies are feeling it too. The difference is those other companies have found a special way to continue to stay in business. This might be a client list they have spent years developing, it might be they are friends with the planning departments, It may be that these other companies have so much equipment and employees that they can cover a vast area.
4. I would carefully examine the most successfull companies and see why they are making it in a market that is so competitive. Find out where their weakest area is, and, using the special tool, offer them your services.

It may be that actual tree work is no longer an option! Maybe the business would turn into a consulting business, who knows. The important concept to remember is:

If you do the same exact thing over and over and expect different results each time, you will always fail.
Being angry just closes your mind to advancing your business. Ya gotta get creative, and turn things around
 
Thats what I'm doing Frans - nice to see it seems I'm barking up the right tree in my new business approach.

This is my 4th year in my new business approach. It is starting to turn around with me doing the consultancy you mentioned. Purchasing new/specialised equipment I have done in an alternative sense by investing in ergonomic solutions training and products like TreeFlex (wasn't a commercial objective, started as a custom project for my own health but it may pay dividends). The other businesses this can be targeted at are work at height - ergonomics and TreeFlex are generic work at height solutions. The contracting side is still my passion, but like you say, its specialised to sensitive pruning and clients, technical removals. I let it build up to a couple of weeks worth at a time, then get in some top dollar guys I know around Europe that fancy a busmans holiday in a beautiful area. Clients enjoy the international flavour!
Next are specialised ergonomic training courses. A couple of pro-active companies have already signed us up for company training programmes based on ergonomic awarenes and ergonomic work solutions.

In my 6th year, if fate is kind, I should have the funds to invest in the strongest area of my business, which ever that proves to be, thats not dependant on employees.
cool.gif


I'd like to committ more to contracting, but until politicians wake up to work incentives/apprenticeships and negative impact of employment law, I refuse. There is so much unco-ordinated legislation flying around, its starting to cancel itself out! Who wants to go to court to set the precedent? Who wants to hire a part time admin assistant just to cope with ever increasing paper work?

Maybe I should just do fly by night tree work and duck the bull?
crazy.gif


Now back to the report on that tree thats going to keep me awake on stormy nights, possibly for the rest of my life..
tongue.gif
 
It is very difficult to get good employees here, you need to invest time and money in them to turn them into a decent employee at which stage they leave anyway LOL Prehaps you should have a written contract Eric with work times set down in. No way would I let my guys leave early if I didn't say they could !

I'd like to employee subbies more but in alot of cases the job wouldn't be viable :(
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

New threads New posts

Kask Stihl NORTHEASTERN Arborists Wesspur TreeStuff.com Teufelberger Westminster X-Rigging Teufelberger
Back
Top Bottom