one handing over your head

[CTtreeNWC]

Does anyone have the link to human tip tying the walnut?

 

[Friedrich]

you dont need 2 pull lines to lock of your pull-line and reset the ma.

 

[Rooted.Tree.Solutions]

About 12:00 minute mark

Hadn’t seen this before. To me it just confirms the need for a good, well trained groundie. A good ground man should be able to help catch mistakes made by the climber and provide valuable feedback about the rigging operations.

I’ve made it a habit over the years to always “think out loud” when setting rigging so that my ground man can learn and also provide valuable feedback. Many times over the years as I’m setting up rigging and talking through it with my ground man I’ll get feedback like, “I think that piece might be too long.” or “It looks like you might be inside the rigging.” or “I think we’re going to need a tagline.” Sometimes their comments are simply from not fully understanding what’s about to happen and I explain more, and sometimes their comments are valid and we make adjustments to our plan.

 

[evo]

Good catch.. its tough to tell exactly what he has going on there... looks like he was bottomed out on the MA system, with no backup... He only moved it so far with the rope and he was stuck.. had to bang it the rest of the way with wedges... and way too much stretch in the system. I didn't like his floating anchor point from the get-go... Lots of ways to skin that cat.. I'm not as concerned about the exact direction of pull as I would be about the amount of pull... The low anchor point in the tree as you pointed out is a huge factor. Looks like a bunch of white eyes showing he was probably in the tree.. High pull lines offer a lot of advantages. Obviously the extra leverage, and also the ability to bend the top of the tree both bring it closer to the lay and uses flex in the wood to store energy, and allows you to judge how much pull is needed.

I will always try to set up a 2:1 MA system on the main line, then add whatever system to one end of that.

And really important on anything AT ALL questionable.... USE MULTIPLE PULL LINES... if you bottom out, you can lock the spare line off and reset the MA system... Also spreads out the force over different areas of the stem/canopy... If you can set one rope you can set two...

and that floating block system... too much play in the system.. ground anchors are pretty cheap and reliable.. I'd never worry about them when pulling by hand.

Well we’ll, if he had a junky block, or a smooth shackle even. All he’d need to do is place that as far up as the second rope would allow. Run that floating anchor line all the way out going through the block/shackle and set up his 5:1 on that. He wouldn’t get a full 10:1 but gain a bunch of MA, throw, safer pulling location, AND better rope angles.

What actually pisses me off, is he said that he’s been doing this work for 8 years! I was hoping he was up and coming, but now my perception has gone from bad to worse.

 

[evo]

I’ll throw my two cents in on jakes rigging. Without going crazy picking everything apart, old hitch cords are great for rigging.
Don’t need some fandagled rope grab pulley that may or may not be released under load. Easy progress capture that can be let out under load!

Same for anchoring the working end, prussic! A great overload indicator and stronger than a knot (debatable). This one is impossible to release under load and should ALWAYS be backed up by a stopper knot, because why not?

 

[Daniel]

Hadn’t seen this before. To me it just confirms the need for a good, well trained groundie. A good ground man should be able to help catch mistakes made by the climber and provide valuable feedback about the rigging operations.

I’ve made it a habit over the years to always “think out loud” when setting rigging so that my ground man can learn and also provide valuable feedback. Many times over the years as I’m setting up rigging and talking through it with my ground man I’ll get feedback like, “I think that piece might be too long.” or “It looks like you might be inside the rigging.” or “I think we’re going to need a tagline.” Sometimes their comments are simply from not fully understanding what’s about to happen and I explain more, and sometimes their comments are valid and we make adjustments to our plan.

Groundie was day 1 green... while it's always good to have an extra set of eyes on the ground as different perspectives and input can improve outcomes, there is a much better takeaway from that video...

DON'T TIP TIE NEEDLESSLY...

he was out there on the limb making lots of cuts to get all the laterals, so he could have taken it in smaller pieces (rare that I say that)...

The strange thing on this one was that the green groundie may have actually saved his life. Groundie held tight.. if a more experienced rope runner had let it run anywhere from 6 inches to 5 feet, there would have been a trip to the hospital or the morgue coming directly..

 

[Daniel]

Well we’ll, if he had a junky block, or a smooth shackle even. All he’d need to do is place that as far up as the second rope would allow. Run that floating anchor line all the way out going through the block/shackle and set up his 5:1 on that. He wouldn’t get a full 10:1 but gain a bunch of MA, throw, safer pulling location, AND better rope angles.

I do it A LOT.. its so fast and easy and gets you a real quick x2 (-friction and loss from rope angle) on the pull.. Either fishing pole a line with the block floating far enough out that the tree won't bury it, or many times I'll use true blue and juts NC around the stem or branch and tie one end off, pull on the other. often easier than isolating the rope. NC is never a problem when pulling by hand and even with machines and trucks, true blue takes a beating and hangs in there.


IN Jake's video I would have been quite comfortable anchoring the doubles pull line to one of the trees he had his floating block set on, then around the stem some 20+' higher than he was set and back down to a MA system anchored to the other tree from his floating block.. You'd lose some force due to line angles, which on those two trees would have been significant, but get MA from the two legs coming off the object tree. If the loss from line angle seemed like too much for comfort, I would have set up a ground anchor and put the 10'1 system on that.. that would free up the second line to use as a second pull line to the same anchor instead of using it for the floating block... A lot faster set up and more importantly a lot less play and stretch in the system..

 

[Daniel]

you dont need 2 pull lines to lock of your pull-line and reset the ma.

but if you have them, why not use them? I have ratcheted many trees, yank on one line, lock it off and then yank on the second, lock it off then back to the first.. I have done it with three and four lines before.

 

[Dan Cobb]

I’ll throw my two cents in on jakes rigging. Without going crazy picking everything apart, old hitch cords are great for rigging.
Don’t need some fandagled rope grab pulley that may or may not be released under load. Easy progress capture that can be let out under load!

Same for anchoring the working end, prussic! A great overload indicator and stronger than a knot (debatable). This one is impossible to release under load and should ALWAYS be backed up by a stopper knot, because why not?

I've never seen a rope grab that can release under load, whether a stand alone unit or integrated with a pulley. For a z-rig, I generally use prussiks for progress capture (tandem prussiks for heavy loads), which work nicely with a prussik minding pulley. Ascenders/rope grabs just don't have enough (any?) safety factor for my taste at 12:1 MA or greater. I always put progress capture on the leg of rope between the haul system and the load (tree) to facilitate resetting and/or reconfiguring the haul system.

I've never tried a hitch for releasing a heavy load. Can you do a controlled release of 1000 lb? 2000 lb? How does the hitch cord fare?

I only hand pull, so I don't feel I need any type of overload indication. I see the point if pulling with equipment.

 

[evo]

I've never seen a rope grab that can release under load, whether a stand alone unit or integrated with a pulley. For a z-rig, I generally use prussiks for progress capture (tandem prussiks for heavy loads), which work nicely with a prussik minding pulley. Ascenders/rope grabs just don't have enough (any?) safety factor for my taste at 12:1 MA or greater. I always put progress capture on the leg of rope between the haul system and the load (tree) to facilitate resetting and/or reconfiguring the haul system.

I've never tried a hitch for releasing a heavy load. Can you do a controlled release of 1000 lb? 2000 lb? How does the hitch cord fare?

I only hand pull, so I don't feel I need any type of overload indication. I see the point if pulling with equipment.

I haven’t lowered a load on a hitch, but I’ve released a f-ton of force applied to one. It only works if the hitch is on the input side of a MA.
So in a 5:1 fiddle block system the first just on the opposite side of the first pulley. Of course this is with one human loading the system, and not a fire line of crew or other input.

 

[Dan Cobb]

but if you have them, why not use them? I have ratcheted many trees, yank on one line, lock it off and then yank on the second, lock it off then back to the first.. I have done it with three and four lines before.

I believe @Friedrich interpreted your text (shown below) to mean you have to lock off a second line to reset the MA on the first line. I interpreted it the same way. Personally, I rig progress capture such that the haul system on each pull line can be reset independently (while holding the load) with no reliance on a spare line.

"And really important on anything AT ALL questionable.... USE MULTIPLE PULL LINES... if you bottom out, you can lock the spare line off and reset the MA system."

 

[Mick Dempsey]

Hadn’t seen this before. To me it just confirms the need for a good, well trained groundie. A good ground man should be able to help catch mistakes made by the climber and provide valuable feedback about the rigging operations.

I’ve made it a habit over the years to always “think out loud” when setting rigging so that my ground man can learn and also provide valuable feedback. Many times over the years as I’m setting up rigging and talking through it with my ground man I’ll get feedback like, “I think that piece might be too long.” or “It looks like you might be inside the rigging.” or “I think we’re going to need a tagline.” Sometimes their comments are simply from not fully understanding what’s about to happen and I explain more, and sometimes their comments are valid and we make adjustments to our plan.

The issue here is people taking big pieces for dramatic video clips.

Take it in three or more pieces, you go out on the branch, tie off a mètre or so, cut it, it swings away from you, and down it goes, safe as anything can be.

This is the guy who fell out the tree and bust himself up, yet still managed to video himself on the ground in agony!

 

[Daniel]

While it's nice to have a rigging set up that can capture progress, I haven't done it in over a decade... I bring plenty of rope to a job and use it. Fat hinges and high pull lines tied to trucks and loaders works for me. Opens up the opportunity to pull heavy trees over that you wouldn't ever consider doing by hand... st least not the vast majority.

 

[southsoundtree]

Hadn’t seen this before. To me it just confirms the need for a good, well trained groundie. A good ground man should be able to help catch mistakes made by the climber and provide valuable feedback about the rigging operations.

I’ve made it a habit over the years to always “think out loud” when setting rigging so that my ground man can learn and also provide valuable feedback. Many times over the years as I’m setting up rigging and talking through it with my ground man I’ll get feedback like, “I think that piece might be too long.” or “It looks like you might be inside the rigging.” or “I think we’re going to need a tagline.” Sometimes their comments are simply from not fully understanding what’s about to happen and I explain more, and sometimes their comments are valid and we make adjustments to our plan.

I'm going to totally disagree.


The climber needs to do a competent, professional job in the first place without errors, through honed skills and experience.

The climber needs to be confident, skilled, and know when not to do something, and when and how to do something.



Relying on another person for safety is a big risk.

Being trained is different.
Relying on a mentor is one thing. Relying on a groundie, no thanks.




Waaaay too many legends in their own mind.



Keep it in your control.

Quit before it's out of your control.


Too many people with only a hammer, so everything looks to be a nail.



Way too many internet/ small pond arbs. Lots of guys can't wedge a tree for snot. A super basic skill that's incredibly protective and productive.






A local guy indicated he was not proficient at bore-cutting. We live in the land of barberchair alders.
He's been doing tree work for 7 years.
What a surprise to hear that.

 

[Mick Dempsey]

Harking back to the guilty of treason vid.

Its clear that he’s significantly downhill of the tree, so the angle of pull on a back leaner is even worse, he’s practically pushing it into the ground.

You can understand why his pulling is having little to no effect.

 

[southsoundtree]

If only people purporting skill could back them up.




Dying trees are much lighter to lift on wedges.

 

[Rooted.Tree.Solutions]

I'm going to totally disagree.


The climber needs to do a competent, professional job in the first place without errors, through honed skills and experience.

The climber needs to be confident, skilled, and know when not to do something, and when and how to do something.



Relying on another person for safety is a big risk.

Being trained is different.
Relying on a mentor is one thing. Relying on a groundie, no thanks.




Waaaay too many legends in their own mind.



Keep it in your control.

Quit before it's out of your control.


Too many people with only a hammer, so everything looks to be a nail.



Way too many internet/ small pond arbs. Lots of guys can't wedge a tree for snot. A super basic skill that's incredibly protective and productive.






A local guy indicated he was not proficient at bore-cutting. We live in the land of barberchair alders.
He's been doing tree work for 7 years.
What a surprise to hear that.

Totally agree with what you’re saying. Wasn’t trying to imply that you are relying on your groundie, was simply commenting on how valuable they can be because we all make mistakes at times.

 

[Serf Life]

Knowledgeable coworker/groundie is gold. Bounce ideas back and forth, keep eye on each other and pedestrians/exposures, make the other person’s life easier.

 

[Serf Life]

Maybe say: “stop one handing over your head”

 

[evo]

Knowledgeable coworker/groundie is gold. Bounce ideas back and forth, keep eye on each other and pedestrians/exposures, make the other person’s life easier.

I can't remember what went wrong other than I was on the ground, and the load was rigged wrong. Regardless a significant log was about to pop the climber (boss), and I was told not to let it run. I had a split second and I let the piece bomb as it crossed over his flipline to lock it off just below their feet.
The looks of horror and then confusion as the impact never happened is what I wont forget.
Climber and groundie are a team, and that team is only as good as the weakest link in the chain. That link can be any number of factors, from a hangover, to a fight with the wife the night before..