"One handing" a chainsaw??!!

[Birdyman88]

Isn't it possible that there are some arborists out there who can performs feats of daring and get away with it because they are trained, experienced (meaning practiced), and just plain talented. I mean there are people in this world who can do stuff that most of us can't do. To name a few: Navy SEALS, circus performers, professional athletes, legendary guitar players, etc. Yes it takes training and practice, lots of it, but some of these arborists HAVE done what it takes. I mean some people actually can do this and walk away unscathed. Not condoning, and I agree with safety protocols and follow them because I don't believe I'm that person. I'm just saying that there are some climbers out there who ARE that good. And the Brits do have a one-hand technique that they condone for special situations.

EDIT: I want to add this ... when I grew up and was working ground with my brother-in-law way down south in the pines, we had a kid my age who became our climber. He was one of those guys that was always great at any athletic endeavor. He also drank like a fish, had a bad drug habit, did a little breaking and entering, and always liked to fight. I saw this guy swim underwater across a river and come from under a log and grab a moccassin off of it once. He was known for this kind of stuff. Anyway, that was 1984. 35 years later, he is still doing tree work at very reasonable prices and has been one-handing chainsaws for 35 years without incident, and to my knowledge has never had one major accident on the job. He is considered a professional athlete in my book, and I would probably never question this guy. Point is, I just believe everyone needs to be honest with themselves about who they are and what they're capable of.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Everyone who is reading would do themselves well to go find their copy of The Tree Climber's Companion. Read Jeff's intro.

He got lucky. He might have left a widow and orphans.

Who went to read a book?

 

[ATH]

Isn't it possible that there are some arborists out there who can performs feats of daring and get away with it because they are trained, experienced (meaning practiced), and just plain talented. I mean there are people in this world who can do stuff that most of us can't do. To name a few: Navy SEALS, circus performers, professional athletes, legendary guitar players, etc. Yes it takes training and practice, lots of it, but some of these arborists HAVE done what it takes. I mean some people actually can do this shit and walk away unscathed. Not condoning, and I agree with safety protocols and follow them because I don't believe I'm that person. I'm just saying that there are some climbers out there who ARE that good. And the Brits do have a one-hand technique that they condone for special situations.

You hit the nail on the head, you just don't know it...

*Special forces suffer higher casualty rate than regular forces - both in training and in battle.
*Ever hear about CTE concerns among elite professional athletes?
*I don't claim to know about circus performer accident rates, but I'm betting it is more than office workers.

Do you think they would find a safer way to do things given the opportunity? (hint: they already do:
*Body armor and more training for the soldiers
*Helmets, technique and rule changes for athletes. The NCAA and NFL have taken to ejecting players for targeting - even though the practice has been a part of the game for decades and plenty of players have used their helmet and/or hit other players in head with no apparent injuries.
*Nets for the circus performers

We should learn from them implementing training, proper techniques, and appropriate use of equipment.

 

[Birdyman88]

You hit the nail on the head, you just don't know it...

*Special forces suffer higher casualty rate than regular forces - both in training and in battle.
*Ever hear about CTE concerns among elite professional athletes?
*I don't claim to know about circus performer accident rates, but I'm betting it is more than office workers.

You are correct about that and I don't disagree, but you're comparing people from much higher risk environments to people in lower risk environments. I'm talking about comparing people within the same job, meaning a pro quarterback to a high school quarterback with no chance of advancing to higher level. I'm just saying that there are people who are better at high risk tasks than others, even to the extent that they can accomplish a high risk task possibly with a lower accident rate than the next guy performing a even less risky task. I mean I'm hanging on a rope with a saw and have never had one incident, but I had a groundie at one point that couldn't seem to friggin' walk around with a running saw without tripping over a limb. I'm just making the point that I was capable of being on the rope, and he most definitey was not. It would be ridiculous to require that every ground operator be secured to an overhead line in case they trip over a limb with a running saw. I know that's ridiculous, but you get my point. But, I personally still don't one-hand unless I have no other reasonable choice

Production was an issue that arose though. So, I've had people interested in my work call me from that old home town. Some of them already had quotes from that guy I mentioned. I can rarely if ever touch his prices and I think I'm reasonable. Cost of living down there isn't that much lower than here. I have only done a few jobs down there just because they know me. And considering it's a 4 hour drive down, well. Anyway, he and one other guy pretty much have that market locked up. I would be curious to know what it takes to beat his prices, still make reasonable money, while following every protocol to the last letter. I certainly can't use the excuse that's he's probably going to break something, because his reputation is actually pretty solid. Anyway, interesting conversation. Same stuff happening around here.

 

[KentuckySawyer]

Lol, my main question is how to stay productive while following the standards we are supposed to...

By getting better.

I intentionally stopped one handing 10+ years ago. There are probably real instances where that practice is the safest available option, but I haven't experienced it yet.

Anyone who pays for WC and GL insurance will tell you that short cuts that compromise person or property are not worth the risk.

 

[TreeCo]

If you don't feel comfortable occasionally cutting with a top handled saw one handed, then don't do it.

Making it sound like the #1 hazard to tree climbers is a gross exaggeration.

 

[ATH]

...... I'm just saying that there are people who are better at high risk tasks than others, even to the extent that they can accomplish a high risk task possibly with a lower accident rate than the next guy performing a even less risky task..... .

Agreed!

..
...I would be curious to know what it takes to beat his prices, still make reasonable money, while following every protocol to the last letter. I certainly can't use the excuse that's he's probably going to break something, because his reputation is actually pretty solid. Anyway, interesting conversation. Same stuff happening around here.

Ever hear this:
Price, Quality, Service.

Pick 2.

(I've also seen price, speed, quality as the choices...).

Generally that is directed at retail environments, but I think there is something to ponder in a service-based industry as well.

 

[rico]

Making it sound like the #1 hazard to tree climbers is a gross exaggeration.

#1 hazard in tree work is under-schooled/under-skilled.

 

[Chaplain242]

I used to get frustrated losing jobs to those hacks....but I'm too stinkin busy to worry about that any more.

My main annoyance now is that they bring down the reputation of the tree care industry while bringing up insurance and workers comp rates. I scratch my head why anyone would hire them.

I don't do turf, so it is kinda like seeing some of the mowers that scalp the lawn way too short; or the irrigation systems that are programmed to run at 8 p.m. Doesn't affect me, but I wonder why people pay good money for ignorance and mismanagement.

I often see supposedly reputable companies act with ignorance and mismanagement, or overcharge to ridiculous levels. Turns into a turkey shoot for the clients so much so they havent a clue who to hire to do a good job or charge reasonably - that’s why I believe that so many leads come from a knock on the truck window when doing a job - perception is that somehow homework got done to hire you in first place... or why word of mouth is so successful...

 

[rico]

I often see supposedly reputable companies act with ignorance and mismanagement, or overcharge to ridiculous levels. Turns into a turkey shoot for the clients so much so they havent a clue who to hire to do a good job or charge reasonably - that’s why I believe that so many leads come from a knock on the truck window when doing a job - perception is that somehow homework got done to hire you in first place... or why word of mouth is so successful...

Bingo! The best way to get work is to be seen doing good work at a fair price. I've never advertised, had business cards, or signs on my trucks in my life. Being seen doing quality work and word of mouth have kept me busy for 40 yrs. Amazing how that works.

 

[Chaplain242]

I run into this all the time around me. There's always some idiot with a saw doing a 2k job for 700!

I sometimes see this done by professional crews, usually by highly effective two man crews vs inefficient 4-5 man crews, and they complain also. Not saying same issue where you are, but uniform price levels aren’t the answer.

I get most of my work by charging 20% to 50% less than the 4 man crews I am competing with, simply because of efficiency, and I take two or more days to do a job that takes one day with a bigger crew. There is a point where heavy work with machines blows me out of the water too. All depends on the conditions experienced on a per job basis...

Most days on medium/small jobs those crews have a man/men scratching for something to do and the boss has to charge for them even at reduced rates. And they sometimes have the safety culture and paperwork to contend with on each job.
Whereas a small well knit team can point at the hazards, have a one minute conversation and get to work with no compromise to safety, in fact they are actually safer as the work together, not serve rigid procedures and struggle with calling the shots on the job which might need to happen with rotating member teams. ‘Well oiled’ I believe is the terminology... of course only have to have a family event happen and that crew is back to square one developing another well oiled team again.

 

[Tony]

In the 18 years of treebuzz existence the topic of one handing is responsible for more discussion than any other topic. Every time it comes up I expect to hear something new. Not likely.

Define 'production'. How is that measured? Are hospital bills calculated into the measurement?

Tom,

Here are a few definitions.

Production = efficiency accomplished safely

Safety = recognition of all reasonable hazards, developing a plan to mitigate/ eliminate the hazard and execution of the plan.

Tony

 

[Barc Buster]

I sometimes see this done by professional crews, usually by highly effective two man crews vs inefficient 4-5 man crews, and they complain also. Not saying same issue where you are, but uniform price levels aren’t the answer.

I get most of my work by charging 20% to 50% less than the 4 man crews I am competing with, simply because of efficiency, and I take two or more days to do a job that takes one day with a bigger crew. There is a point where heavy work with machines blows me out of the water too. All depends on the conditions experienced on a per job basis...

Most days on medium/small jobs those crews have a man/men scratching for something to do and the boss has to charge for them even at reduced rates. And they sometimes have the safety culture and paperwork to contend with on each job.
Whereas a small well knit team can point at the hazards, have a one minute conversation and get to work with no compromise to safety, in fact they are actually safer as the work together, not serve rigid procedures and struggle with calling the shots on the job which might need to happen with rotating member teams. ‘Well oiled’ I believe is the terminology... of course only have to have a family event happen and that crew is back to square one developing another well oiled team again.

You've completely missed my point. I'm talking about Meth-head Mike's tree hackery. It's the idiots who don't know what their doing working for beer and crack money with stolen equipment that bothers me. Last year we had one of those guys eject himself from a tow behind lift. Those kind of outfits have no regard for safety, the clients property, or the industry and make the rest of us look bad by association.

I run a small skilled 1-2 man crew myself and have no problem with fair and safe competition. I do quality work and don't have to pay mega bucks for advertising. I often times come in under the price of the big guys just like your saying. I don't see a problem with that.

 

[Birdyman88]

The joke between me and my wife is that I drive better after drinking than she does completely sober. She never fails to confirm this after going out on the town in an unfamiliar city. She misses turns, gets lost, almost runs the occasional stop light, changes lanes without noticing other cars, and then gets into such a panic that she has to pull over and regroup. She does all of this because she has no idea where she's going. But, she never lets me behind the wheel and I never ask, even though I know exactly how to get home. Stupid rules.

 

[Gareth's Tree]

Appreciate all the responses guys! Good job keeping it civil LOL!

Yes, my main concern is being able to stay competitive while followings proper safety procedures and also following regulations to do things legally. I have honestly been wondering if I would be able to continue to run my business if I made my guys employees instead of subcontractors, and started to follow all the safety procedures and regulations that I should be following. I'm honestly not sure if my market would support the prices that I would need to charge...

We are a very efficient three-man operation. I have a grapple saw truck, a small articulated loader, an 18 inch chipper and a 60 horsepower self-propelled stump grinder. We are fast and efficient on all but the largest trees (which I usually turn down). My guys are amazing and we usually work a 9 plus hour day with essentially no breaks, eating lunch while we work.

I also have a wife and five kids at home so I have chosen to try and be home every day by 5 and not work weekends. We usually cut down trees four days a week and I spend one day doing estimates. I know this means that I am losing revenue by not working more hours but it is not as important to me as being around my kids as they are growing up.

I tried to make between $1,400 and $1800 a day with my setup (sometimes I make more than that but if you average it out it's pretty close to that). I am definitely not low priced in my area, I am probably close to the high-end. If I was to decrease my production and increase my overhead I am not sure that my market would support the increase in price I would have to make to compensate for it.

The decision I have been contemplating as of late is, if I can't do it right, then should I do it at all...

 

[TreeCo]

I kind of doubt that your 'employees' are legal sub contractors.
Have they business licenses?

You should talk to an attorney about your exposure.

 

[Gareth's Tree]

I kind of doubt that your 'employees' are legal sub contractors.
Have they business licenses?

You should talk to an attorney about your exposure.

That is what I am talking about, doing the things that I know should be done right.

And yes, my main worker carries his own liability insurance and has his own company.

 

[Phillip Schissler]

I found no issues with production using a handsaw, snap cuts, ropes and a good work plan. Only so much brush that can go through the chipper per minute. Not worth the risk and wear and tear on your shoulders. Not gonna lie and say I never one hand in an awkward position and out of the kickback zone. Even then should really look for better positioning options. But I was able to break the habit. Makes me shudder when I see videos of people pushing tops or logs over one handing. Or cutting a stub you need to hang on to. Just finish it with a handsaw.

 

[Gareth's Tree]

I found no issues with production using a handsaw, snap cuts, ropes and a good work plan. Only so much brush that can go through the chipper per minute. Not worth the risk and wear and tear on your shoulders. Not gonna lie and say I never one hand in an awkward position and out of the kickback zone. Even then should really look for better positioning options. But I was able to break the habit. Makes me shudder when I see videos of people pushing tops or logs over one handing. Or cutting a stub you need to hang on to. Just finish it with a handsaw.

I am guessing the terminology is just different then what I'm used to, but what are you referring to when you say snap cut?

 

[TreeCo]

Interesting.