Moving a big Giant sequoia, advice?

Re: Tree to Move, Fert first? Help.

I had great success treating transplanted oaks that were dying by taking top soil from beneath healthy thriving oaks and spreading it beneath the dying oaks. This method saved over 65 of the 75 transplanted oaks(Quercus agrifolias).

Something to possibly consider?

jomoco
 
Re: Tree to Move, Fert first? Help.

[ QUOTE ]
Discouraging news from TN, just watching that canker grow. Didn't they try to treat it?

Pathologists typically seem to worship pathogens instead of attacking them.



[/ QUOTE ]

At the time I was told that there was nothing I could do to "treat" the canker. All I could do was prune out any limbs that showed signs, ASAP, at the trunk, and hope the tree compartmentalized it. I respect these guys alot, but do realize the truth in your statment.
It was the wrong tree in the wrong place to begin with and would not have been able to remain in our "Dwarf Conifer Garden"
shocked.gif

Our Biology Prof. likes to stick stuff in to "see if it will live" without much regard to "what if it does live?" We will try again with better conditions.

I went back and counted the rings the other day. It was six years old. It was already about ten feet tall and had at least 4" caliper. It must have been planted the year before I came to work.
 
Re: Tree to Move, Fert first? Help.

Diane, do you think the soil conditions where this tree was growing was a determinant in its lack of vigor? Basically a constantly perched or temporary water table as opposed to the preferred conditions of wet, but well-drained?

It is also listed as an intolerant species and the crowded conditions in which it was trying to grow may have suppressed initial development.

You recommend augmenting the new site with compost. So this is a tree requiring exceptions to the rule of no augmentation of the planting site? Or was this recommendation for top dressing?

Xman, what are your soil conditions at the new site? You stated a "good water source" but what other soil characteristics exist?

Super interesting thread on a tree we are not, unfortunately, able to sample here. So this is a wonderful, vicarious learning experience.

Sylvia
 
Re: Tree to Move, Fert first? Help.

[ QUOTE ]
So this is a tree requiring exceptions to the rule of no augmentation of the planting site?


[/ QUOTE ]This neverevereverever was a rule. Sylvia it's not like you to dogmatize a very general guideline based on short-term research done with hardtokill species like red maple and green ash.

Jo's tip of fresh bioactive soil amendment is the way to go.

Best of luck, X; next time in balmer I'd like to see how it's doing.
 
Re: Tree to Move, Fert first? Help.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So this is a tree requiring exceptions to the rule of no augmentation of the planting site?


[/ QUOTE ]This neverevereverever was a rule. Sylvia it's not like you to dogmatize a very general guideline based on short-term research done with hardtokill species like red maple and green ash.

Jo's tip of fresh bioactive soil amendment is the way to go.

Best of luck, X; next time in balmer I'd like to see how it's doing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Guy, in rereading my post I can see how you misunderstood my comment and question. If you are referring to Jomoco's tip of fresh/natural amendments placed under the oak trees, I thought that was great and would have applauded that decision. We have seen TREMENDOUS response in trees with the top dressing of organic matter or material.

My question (evidently not worded well) was directed to Diane in amending the planting HOLE itself with a possibly different material than what the tree will have to exist in. It was not clear to me whether she meant to the hole itself or top dressing of.

Here we have a very real problem with trees and shrubs planted in tremendously augmented planting holes. Then when the tree or shrub's root reach the limit of quality material they come up against a very unforgiving and less than amendable interface. Many times the plants will start to stress out, die back and/or suffer apparently from lack of development in their roots.

We have seen tremendous results from people either blasting the hole (we live in a rural area and farmers/ranchers have had no problems with blasting stumps in the past) or having a back hoe in to the fracture the soil where the tree will be planted. Side by side comparisons where this has been done show a MARKED difference in growth and development of the tree with the fractured soil. No other augmentation to the planting hole being added to either.

My question with Diane's recommendations of compost being added to the site/hole I still feel is a valid question in that I have no personal experience with this type of tree. With its fibrous root sytem, it could very well demand different circumstances to which I am accustomed. Therefore, her response will add to my knowledge base. I probably will never encounter this very special tree in my environment, but perhaps I might encounter other trees with similar circumstances and this piece of information may help with my decisions or recommendations.

I by no means follow rhetoric and dogma blindly knowing full well this profession demands a flexible approach to all situations. My response to most questions begins with "It depends..."


Sylvia
 
Re: Tree to Move, Fert first? Help.

Sylvia, we agree, big difference in widely fractured holes. I use a pick, since I lack a backhoe. And yes it is a very bad thing to heavily amend a small hole.

However, "Amendments may have to be considered on some sites to improve soil structure, water-holding capacity, or drainage." p 113 of Watson-Himelick's Planting book. Given that most urban soils need improvement, the only RULE on amendments may be to consider them.

Arboreally Yours,

guymayor
 
Re: Tree to Move, Fert first? Help.

Hi Sylvia,
smile.gif

The soil amending is to help this already VERY stressed tree re-establish as quickly as possible with root growth in its new site. (Amending is both mixed with native soil in the planting area and as a top dressing. These trees are heavy feeders.)
One needs to remember SGs are unique in that they are 200+ million year old survivors. They existed in conditions we could never even fathom with gaseous air mixtures and soil element combinations unknown today.
The fact that Xman's tree is still alive in its present site is testament to its genetic heritage.
The huge fibrous root mat is unique to these trees and is key to its million+ yrs. of survival. Root regeneration is quick and massive (in quantity) when proper conditions exist.
This is the tree's genetic strength and so that's where we are focusing. Once I hear how the transplant went I'll give Xman another suggestion to further enhance this tree's possible renewal.

-Diane-
 
Re: Tree to Move, Fert first? Help.

[ QUOTE ]
Diane, do you think the soil conditions where this tree was growing was a determinant in its lack of vigor? Basically a constantly perched or temporary water table as opposed to the preferred conditions of wet, but well-drained?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, in its lack of 'vitality'. Its vigor (which is its genetic constitution) is what is keeping this tree hanging in there despite the water and soil issues. After transplanting the tree its historically-known vigor will hopefully revive its vitality ... that's what I'm counting on... as is Xman.


[ QUOTE ]

It is also listed as an intolerant species and the crowded conditions in which it was trying to grow may have suppressed initial development.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not likely. These trees are quite capable of out striping other trees for water and nutrients.

More likely it was cultural. Since this tree was brought from California as a seedling something happened in transit (i.e. dehydration)or at time of planting, or weather during initial first few winters, or any other number of possibilities and combinations that hindered its initial development.

-Diane-
 
Re: Tree to Move, Fert first? Help.

Hey Diane/Sylvia (and also the guys),

This thread started with X asking about fertilizer and being advised to use micro associates. Now I'm wondering about macro associates. Would it make sense to install some groundcover like sequoias have in their native habitat; ferns and berries and little clump grasses and such? That's what I saw around the sequoias in Yosemite.

i'm thinking there's symbiosis that goes on between the roots of all these. Kind of the opposite of allelopathy; chemicals exuded by the roots of one are conducive to the growth of the roots of the other. Why not install some of these plants here and there, in bare spots and just outside the root mass?

Trying to recreate native growing conditions...hey diane can you send X some chipmunks (kidding?)?

Crazy idea?
 
Re: Tree to Move, Fert first? Help.

[ QUOTE ]
Hey Diane/Sylvia (and also the guys),

This thread started with X asking about fertilizer and being advised to use micro associates. Now I'm wondering about macro associates. Would it make sense to install some groundcover like sequoias have in their native habitat; ferns and berries and little clump grasses and such? That's what I saw around the sequoias in Yosemite.

i'm thinking there's symbiosis that goes on between the roots of all these. Kind of the opposite of allelopathy; chemicals exuded by the roots of one are conducive to the growth of the roots of the other. Why not install some of these plants here and there, in bare spots and just outside the root mass?

Trying to recreate native growing conditions...hey diane can you send X some chipmunks (kidding?)?

Crazy idea?

[/ QUOTE ]

On the idea of micros, maybe Dianne could prepare a package of native leaf litter and top soil from a nearby forest of these trees, and X could topdress/prep hole with said items. Seems to be the best 'compost' you can get......I know theres a term for this, but I am drawing a blank?

Would cost a ton to ship I am sure, and would need to be fast so it didnt dry out. But would contain all the natural beneficials these trees love, and the natural predators to keep non beneficials at bay.
 
Re: Tree to Move, Fert first? Help.

[ QUOTE ]

On the idea of micros, maybe Dianne could prepare a package of native leaf litter and top soil from a nearby forest of these trees

[/ QUOTE ]

Well.... seeing as there is a perfect 100 ft. specimen right out my window here I could do that
smile.gif


SGs have the endomycorrihizel fungi - VAM (vesicular arbuscular myco)- member of the Zygomycota tribe.


As for the chipmunks: Well.... with just a bag of peanuts I can get all the chipmunks Xman would like. However, I don't think they ship very well
grin.gif


-Diane-
 
Re: Tree to Move, Fert first? Help.

Diane and others, i really value your information.

This tree just about broke me on Sunday.

I picked a cool rainy time to move this tree on purpose (cancelled when hot and dry a week ago).

But it's been a real struggle.

Plus I've been doing it all myself.

Saturday, I dug around it. a little rain.

Sunday night rain and constant rain all day Sunday pretty much.

Tried to get on the truck bed Sunday.

Working well at first.

Then the slippery mud and muck made things difficult. Very difficult to get the hooklift to the hook and very difficult to get the rails onto the truck lined up.

finally about at 5:30pm after working all day with no breaks, the flatbed was lined up on the rails and I was hauling onto the truck. The root ball was not centered on the bed. the bed was pull on about half way, I was smiling and happy that i was going to be going home with the tree. then, the off center ball rolled the bed off the side of the truck, bending down the fender and denting a taillight gaurd and breaking a tailight.

I had enough for the day.

See, x-man doesn't get everything right.

I had thoughts about chipping it and tossing the ball back in the hole.

I decided to go home because both my mind an body were tired. It was one of the worst days i've had in a very long time.

I had to go today and get $800 worth of fish for my pond. driving all day. so didn't get to play with sequoia today. but rained good all day long.

tomorrow, i will attempt to tackle it again, this time with a helper. drizzle rain expected all day. we will park the crane next to the bed and attempt to move the root ball to center it, then try to load it again.

rain has been great for the tree, so no problems there.

root ball about 8-9 feet wide and 3 -4 feet deep.

very unique root system.

planting location has been changed because my wife saw a picture and said it was ugly, plus, depth problem -explain later.

have a better spot actually now. a 2' diam. pipe from a stream runs under my property. will dig up till i find the pipe. i'm sure it leaks around it, as it is concrete pipe with sections. will plant the GS right on top the pipe with a huge area of ammended soil (good organic stuff with very aged wood chips mixed in with soil). Plus i bought lots of endo and ecto myc that will be soil injected.

later and thanks,
 
Re: Tree to Move, Fert first? Help.

there was a presentation in St Louis @ ISA expo. it was given from a man from Stockholm I believe. they did an extensive study, still ongoing, on tree roots and their relationships with water/sewer lines. he had slide upon slide of roots that would find their way down, like torpedos!, to waterlines. pipe material played no role....plastic, iron, concrete, didn't matter. some roots traveled as far as 30' down to get to these pipes. once there the root would find a union in the pipe, and send out small fiburous hairs to that union. the small roots would make a tiny entry, feed off the wate and O2, and eventually clog and or break the pipe. it was amazing to see what trees are capable of.

another awesome slide was of a tree 15' above a WWII bunker. the roots had broken through the thick earth, concrete, etc barrier that this bunker was based under, and looked like a chasm of mineral deposist hanging from the ceiling. very eerie! again, the roots traveled down, and broke through a microscopic void to gain entry to a moist area with O2.

X, I think putting this water loving species above that pipe is an excellent idea......just think of the worse case scenario of the fiburous roots clogging/breaking that pipe.
 
Re: Tree to Move, Fert first? Help.

Xman - Sorry to hear about your struggles:

[ QUOTE ]
I had thoughts about chipping it and tossing the ball back in the hole.

[/ QUOTE ]
yup.gif



It's good it has been raining though.
Check out Jerry B.'s recently posted video. It gives you a chance to walk among the 'giants'....it may help soothe the frustration.

-Diane-
 
Re: Tree to Move, Fert first? Help.

[ QUOTE ]
the root would find a union in the pipe, and send out small fiburous hairs to that union. the small roots would make a tiny entry, feed off the wate and O2, and eventually clog and or break the pipe. it was amazing to see what trees are capable of.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, all of BB's post is what Sequoias will do.... only much faster!!

Be forewarned, Xman, and keep us posted.

-Diane-
 
Re: Tree to Move, Fert first? Help.

Way to hang in there!

[ QUOTE ]
root ball about 8-9 feet wide and 3 -4 feet deep.

very unique root system.

[/ QUOTE ]Love to see a pic, after you've recovered. Sounds like quite a job--you will really value that tree when it survives!
 

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