Liberalism ruins everything it touches.

That doesn't seem fair at all!

From previous devisive posts I think Tom said he won't allow this forum to be used as a platform for expressing certain ideological or political perspectives.

That seems limiting.

However, the left or neomarxists, do not tolerate divergence from what they see as unquestionable truths and support censorship and violence against those who hold different opinions; and as this is Tom's forum I have some sympathy towards his reluctance for it to become a lightening rod for these volatile political matters.
 
My father, armed with the confidence of a solid biological definition told me that an unborn child was a "parasite".

I could see clearly that even if the fetus is parasitic in some sense, defining the baby only by that criteria in no way encompasses all that it is.

For the vast majority of women having a baby is a biological imperative to complete their existence and fulfill its purpose.

Also, although the mother is the host, humanity as a whole is also the host and women exist in fulfillment of this.
 
Yo

U can put some lipstick on a pig, but it still squeals “she shouldn’t spread her legs”.
Spider goats? Monkey pigs?
What have we come to?

Abortions being the norm for the majority of human history, and now the "legality" of it is being flicked like a limp tree without lignin (limp pasta)..

Can anyone tell me when abortions were banned originally? Witch trials? Connection?
 
This thread is entertaining lol, I figure I'll put in my current uniformed thoughts on the whole abortion topic:
I feel nothing is black and white here, it's rather nuanced and both sides of the coin have some valid points to make. Personally, I feel that pro choice is the most rational perspective. Abortions among our species and other mammals have been prevalent for hundreds of years and will continue to happen regardless of laws so what's the point of laws, shaming, and more unnecessary death and hardship? One random example, say a mother is raped or finds out her baby has a deformity that guarantees it will not survive much past birth and makes the difficult decision to not take it to term. Abortions are illegal so she goes the underground route and gets a sketchy procedure and dies. Now the husband has to raise a family on his own and the children have no mother. Is that better? Its going to happen anyways, why not make it safe and provide counseling to help support and make informed decisions? Where it gets more grey to my morals is later term abortions, although it's less than 1%. I'm sure there's reasons that could be justified such as certain health concerns of the mother but others that I feel could be procecuted as infanticide. To me, the general cut off would be around 15-20 weeks where the structures in the brain that mediate pain and pain behavior are present, before viability, and screening for most abnormalities can be performed. I'm sure this will change as our understanding and science gets better, we'll probably have the ability to fully grow a baby in a lab in a few years lol. I love my kids and do have a respect for fetuses. They are humans with genetic traits engrained in dna, growing up, my ob grandfather kept one of his son's from a miscarriage in a jar. Super weird I know but I always found it interesting and payed my respects to our uncle. To me it's mostly about reducing net death/pain and maximizing psychological and social health.
 
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@rico, I occasionally wonder if you have any idea how much damage you do to your own arguments by using the language of a crass, boorish brat.

Then I stop wondering and make dinner for my kids, who have literally never heard most of the words you can’t seem to express a thought without.

Grow up. Use big boy words. Debate like an adult or expect to be treated like a child.
1. Liberalism ruins everything it touches

2. Trump is the greatest president in history

3. They have the right to NOT open their legs.

4. Freedom of choice and right to privacy are anti democratic authoritarian principles

So much for your adult like debate.
 
After reading through all this here is my summation and conclusions:

a. Touching liberal Johnsons will be the ruination of everything.

b. Trump doesn’t win cage matches or grab pussy like he used to.

c. Biden is probably more than a little stunned that he’s rough-riding what’s building up to be the worst combination of global crisis any American President has faced to-date.

d. Our greatest danger is not high fuel prices, it is global military, economic and environmental instability on multiple fronts. It will kick our collective asses and our government, any government is pretty much helpless to slow it down right now. Doesn’t matter who the president is. It’s much bigger than what one man or woman in charge of one country can do.

e. If you’re the praying kind keep praying. Otherwise (and also) try to act locally to improve cooperation and deescalate division within your own communities. If now is not the time to pull together through disagreement, there never is a time to do that and we will have given up.

-AJ
 
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After reading through all this here is my summation and conclusions:

a. Touching liberal Johnsons will be the ruination of everything.

b. Trump doesn’t win cage matches or grab pussy like he used to.

c. Biden is probably more than a little stunned that he’s rough-riding what’s building up to be the worst combination of global crisis any American President has faced to-date.

d. Our greatest danger is not high fuel prices, it is global military, economic and environmental instability on multiple fronts. It will kick our collective asses and our government, any government is pretty much helpless to slow it down right now. Doesn’t matter who the president is. It’s much bigger than what one man or woman in charge of one country can do.

e. If you’re the praying kind keep praying. Otherwise (and also) try to act locally to improve cooperation and deescalate division within your own communities. If now is not the time to pull together through disagreement, there never is a time to do that and we will have given up.

-AJ
 
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For anyone curious I answered my own question.

"Women would resort to illegal unsafe methods, also known as "back alley" abortions. Abortions became illegal by statute in Britain in 1803 with Lord Ellenborough's Act. Various anti-abortion statutes that codified or expanded common law began to appear in the United States in the 1820s.”

Women have been giving and receiving abortions for basically as long as they have given birth. There are many herbal concoctions developed over the centuries.
 
For anyone curious I answered my own question.

"Women would resort to illegal unsafe methods, also known as "back alley" abortions. Abortions became illegal by statute in Britain in 1803 with Lord Ellenborough's Act. Various anti-abortion statutes that codified or expanded common law began to appear in the United States in the 1820s.”

Women have been giving and receiving abortions for basically as long as they have given birth. There are many herbal concoctions developed over the centuries.
So one could almost say it (abortion) is barbaric, and we are growing in our society enough to recognize that we are killing an innocent human life. Much like we grown in other human rights in the last 100-200 years (womens rights, and numerous other human rights we gotten better on). Or even going from a flat earth to round, as scientific knowledge increases it should change our perception of how the world and life works.
 
So one could almost say it (abortion) is barbaric, and we are growing in our society enough to recognize that we are killing an innocent human life. Much like we grown in other human rights in the last 100-200 years (womens rights, and numerous other human rights we gotten better on). Or even going from a flat earth to round, as scientific knowledge increases it should change our perception of how the world and life works.
That would hold true almost, if the woman is being forced against her will…. Only then
By whom or what, a individual, group, society or government is the only acceptable follow up ethical follow up questions
 
I’d like to add some facts to this discussion that might refocus it on civil rights and mothers’ dominion over their own bodies.

1. When one earns a driver’s license in one state, he is able to drive in every state; moreover, he can get drunk and run down as many humans as possible in any state he chooses. What if I live adjacent to a state in which drunk-driving is ripe—and those drivers are negligently killing citizens in my state? Or, as was the case when I was 18 in Massachusetts, driving into Rhode Island to buy booze? Wouldn’t it be better if federal laws ruled over such situations?

Abortion should never be limited by individual states because the right to control one’s body is a universal (some might say god-given) right. Anti-abortionists favor state’s rights because it’s easier to pack state governments with sympathetic legislators than it is at the federal level. We have states in which governing bodies refuse Affordable Care Act and Medicaid funds for solely political reasons, while their citizens lack proper health care and services. When the Pandemic started, trump immediately tried to dole out supplies based on blue and red states. In that situation, how would YOU feel if you or your loved ones lived in a blue state?

The premise of state’s rights is counter-productive in almost every case, as it prevents America from achieving the best ends for all Americans. This is evidenced by the inequality in education (curriculum and funding) across our nation. Schools in America should be allotted the exact same per capita amount for each resident child, as determined by the federal government--just as we are allowed a specific amount for each dependent on our federal taxes. Perhaps the wealthy might then vote to educate ALL children properly, instead of only those who can afford private and charter schools.

State's rights are currently being used by political extremists in several northwestern states, in a feverish effort to commandeer government institutions and/or to secede (violently if necessary) from the U.S. altogether. Where will that lead if not civil war? In short, at a given moment, state’s rights work for little more than half the citizens in a given state, while depriving the remaining citizens of rights and benefits that they deem important. One might claim that that is democracy, but it is anything but democracy when the legislative deck is stacked by political action committees, or based on the majority’s religious/moral beliefs—be they conservative or liberal. In these cases, a nationwide voter consensus would be much more equitable.

2. More than a few animals eat their young when they exhibit signs of weakness, illness, deformity—and most of all when available resources are insufficient to ensure rapid, healthy growth of the offspring. Are these animals being immoral or unethical? I suppose not, if god made them that way. That is not completely unlike a woman’s choice (right) to abort a fetus if she deems untenable her health, her living situation, the lack of a supportive father, or her sustainable future (or that of her potential child).

“Indeed, mother bears, felines, canids, primates, and many species of rodents—from rats to prairie dogs—have all been seen killing and eating their young. Insects, fish, amphibians, reptiles, and birds also have been implicated in killing, and sometimes devouring, the young of their own kind. When mammalian mothers give birth, they must begin nursing their infants—something they can do only if they're healthy and well nourished. But if, for instance, a mother bear in the wild gives birth to unhealthy or deformed cubs, or is unable to find enough to eat, she will typically kill and consume them. "They become a resource, one she can't afford to waste," Barthel says. A mother bear—or lion or wild dog—does the same if she can't nurse her cubs or find food for them. And if one of her cubs dies, she'll most likely eat it immediately, as Khali did. This nourishes her and has the added benefit of removing the carcass. "That way there's nothing rotting in her den which might attract predators," Barthel says.” https://www.nationalgeographic.com/...h-bear-zoo-infanticide-chimps-bonobos-animals
 
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Infanticide was a thing amongst nomads, I hear. If babies come too close together, the mothers couldn't carry them both and do the work of daily life.
So one could almost say it (abortion) is barbaric, and we are growing in our society enough to recognize that we are killing an innocent human life. Much like we grown in other human rights in the last 100-200 years (womens rights, and numerous other human rights we gotten better on). Or even going from a flat earth to round, as scientific knowledge increases it should change our perception of how the world and life works.
Malnourished infants and children. How do they fit into human rights. Where are all the adopting parents who are pro-life?

Is pro-life not pro-fed and pro-cared for?
 
Infanticide was a thing amongst nomads, I hear. If babies come too close together, the mothers couldn't carry them both and do the work of daily life.

Malnourished infants and children. How do they fit into human rights. Where are all the adopting parents who are pro-life?

Is pro-life not pro-fed and pro-cared for?
I would verture to bet that Christians and other pro-life people are the highest percentage of people that adopt, and donate to charities towards kids etc. I know/see more adopted kids in the Mennonite/Brethren/Baptist churches (or from their background) then I see in atheist/anti Christian people.

I will try to find actual numbers, if you are willing to actually do some research on this topic too.

My sis in law is director of an aids program for Africa (mostly working with children (I believe). My brother has worked with habitat for humanity (where he met his wife mentioned above) and Samaritan' Purse for most of his life. I, and my family have participated in multiple missions trips through out the years...not trips of preaching, but trips where we build houses etc, and tried to help teach trades etc.

Have you done similar things?
 
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I respect people that practice what they preach. Or as I like to say, "Remember, they watch your feet, not your lips," i.e. do you walk your talk?
 

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