Shock loaded like a mofo, and watch the stump and ground movement at 10:48. No bueno. Gawd knows I love making big cuts, but there is a proper place and time for everything? Ballsy cut though!
I've become obsessed with rigging rings, are they not the best thing since sliced bread?
- Thread starter eyehearttrees
- Start date
Merle Nelson
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- SF Bay Area, CA
Yeah these off-branded ones aren't taking 3/4" (my understanding is that, if you're trying to fit 3/4" rope, you can't even use just 3/4" slot you need like 10% wider to account for flattening otherwise your rope's edges will be pressing-into the edges of the thing, hopefully they're smoothed/machined well!)
Thanks a ton for the recommendation am going to go check them out, am about to make a thread for help on choosing a heavy-duty rigging setup because I only have medium-duty now (so for my 1/2" lines these off-brand ones work great!)
Re the Harkens, that's good to know thanks! Re Ronstan, you mean oval-ID in a good way right? (can't tell which orientation you mean 'cross section' relative to in this context, still in coffee mode)
Re the andonizing, I can't say I'm seeing much issue there in fact I'm uncertain there's much significance one way or the other insofar as how slick the rings themselves are (within a certain range of smoothness, obviously they could be too rough!), I mean the additional friction going from the slickest andonization to just rope-worn steel or aluminum, it can't be that big a % friction-gained and you could argue that additional friction is a good thing (to a point, but that point is well-below any friction from less-than-glossy rings!)
What do you use for your setup / what do you do with it, if you don't mind posting it? I'm unable to rig anything large so I can't even do a proper blocking-down of a tree right now because I'm trying to limit loading to around 1k lbs (1/2" line running through rings and either held or wrapped around the trunk at the bottom), gonna go make that thread to get an idea what I need for properly blocking-down a tree!
Good rigging rings are not anodized they have a special hard coat process. I don't see any wear through with cleanish ropes. Guys who were able to go through the hardcoat were using muddy rope and "sanded" through it. I have chipped my hardcoat in some exterior places by slamming big loads into a loose set up of the triple ring sling.
Guys using steel thimbles will want to watch for the rope cutting a groove over time. In the original thread about X Rigging Rings someone (Riggs?) later on posted a picture of a steel shackle they had used for years. Had a groove cut 1/4 inch deep or more.
I'm nuts about rigging rings too - for what they can do.
eyehearttrees
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- Tampa-Area
Who doesn't?? ;D
I was just mentioning it because they're $1 and I find them incredibly useful, was hoping others would catch it and maybe find use there as well (obviously not for heavy rigging or anything, but for climbing anchors or light/medium rigging the generic 1/2" thimbles do take 5/8" rope and don't dig-into it or anything)
I'd also advise the type I linked that have the gap in the steel, solely because you could then see it deform before breaking (ie higher chance you'll catch yourself over-loading before you actually break it, unlike the real rigging-rings you wouldn't be doing that heavy loading so you don't need the extra steel, you've got the bend radius *and* you've got an 'overload indicator' of sorts if you start to close-the-gap on the thimble!)
I notice you use a velcro band, why not knot it is it the strength loss? I hated the strength loss of knotting but, once assembled, my figure-8-with-bight that holds my thimble has such great 'rope position', I'd bet it'd do impressively well on a pull-test because the knot doesn't start until the rope's gone around the thimble so shock-loading would make it 'clench' the thimble before bursting the knot....I left one of these thimbles in my climb-line, in a figure-8's bight, for many many months as I'd throw that around the base of a tree, run my rope through the thimble and that'd be my basal anchor, just recently 'stole' the thimble from that (and now have rope-on-rope there) after realizing just how little force I put on my basal anchors, I mean the rope there still looks new hell if the thimble were painted I doubt it'd have been scratched I dunno I guess being lightweight, and often anchoring around thick, rugged-bark trees, just doesn't cinch-down my basal anchor very much!
eyehearttrees
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- Tampa-Area
What am I looking for on the ground? And thanks for linking I dunno WTF that was but I got wayyy too much satisfaction watching the degree of control on that giant section they were moving at that point in the video (is that your video? The bollard setup looks sick, is it the big Stein unit with the winch?)
Am trying to decide on what to get for my 'heavy duty rigging' setup but the Safebloc is becoming more attractive every time I look at it (am also thinking it could be used as a basal anchor, like if you were going to use it to add friction why add it up top if you could add it below? Obviously if you don't have a portawrap, which I do not lol....I only do medium-duty rigging and I do trunk-wraps for my friction!
eyehearttrees
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Oh ok the ground shook is that what I was supposed to see? Am not on a good screen at the moment!
Yeah that piece was insanely big....but if you've got the bollards and the anchors and the bull-line, why would you say no-bueno? It didn't seem he shock-loaded in-excess of what was required to drop that big a piece....I guess I'm just looking at it thinking "the less cuts you have to make while at-height, the better" and thinking it's boss that he has a setup that lets him drop stuff like that, hell the control of it seemed impeccable (and if the ground shook, well....what's the real harm, I mean so long as you're 100% trusting the trunk you're anchoring to then it should just be a matter of MBS of your rigging setup no?)
eyehearttrees
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I just can't imagine that the coating, whether super-slick coatings or pure/bare metal, makes much difference once the line's under-load...furthermore, a little bit of more/less friction in the rings themselves just can't possibly be of any real significance (slick won't make it like a block and rough won't make it any more of a friction-device!)
How are you liking the triple-ring sling? That's 99% what I'm going to order, will likely choose tonight, I want to be able to block-down big Oaks and don't have any of the gear for it yet (setup for 1k lbs max rigging right now) and that triple-ringed sling looks boss (the 6' one, 3/4" tenex, one XL ring and two L rings) am almost-surely going to get that for 1 anchor and a Safebloc for the other (but honestly I'd use the Safebloc as my basal anchor if I found it worked that way, I dislike the idea of adding much friction so far down the line)
Would love to know if you've tried using your 3-ring sling on spars/trunks? They say "for crotches only" but it's just a sling I don't see why I can't wrap it around a tree and load it, I mean is it going to slide-down the trunk or something? I'd probably put a prusik on so I could choke it around the tree when doing this but would feel that doing so was redundant..So psyched for this sling, will probably use it as a climbing anchor/redirect false-crotch while climbing if not using it to rig as it's so great to the rope going through it and it's so easy to carry since, when folded & clipped on your belt, it's just 3'!
((Might sound crazy but, instead of the 3-ringed sling for canopy-anchor, it's crossed my mind to get a Safebloc and one of the 1-ringed, 15' slings and splice the Safebloc onto the other end, then just use it 'normal' ie wrap it around whatever you're using and use the Safebloc as one side's 'ring' and the normal ring as the other's!))
The Velcro was only used to hold it together for the picture, the X ring easily held the rope by itself.
I’m interested in finding o rings with a smaller diameter for use with the Sticht Hitch, any idea what the brand is you measured at 9.5mm?
I’m interested in finding o rings with a smaller diameter for use with the Sticht Hitch, any idea what the brand is you measured at 9.5mm?
@eyehearttrees, No offense and I'm not sure of this without having seen you perform yet but I think your getting a little bit ahead of yourself. I say this because your reaching a point where your rigging ability is pretty technical but I'm not sure if your fully understanding why you don't see anybody else using those thimbles your speaking of in the applications you do. I love the enthusiasm and I recommend you study up on the physics of rigging for dismantling trees because it sounds like your rigging is getting more complicated and it's great but there's some very easy to find info on PDFs and in treebuzz archives that I think you would really like.
There's many reasons many guys prefer the rings over a thimble like your speaking of.
Like brocky said about steel wearing grooves in Riggs shackles and those shackles he used we're doubled up and way thicker than your thimble, not to mention USA made steel.
The rings can be easier to inspect and rotate so you can even out the wear from rope friction.
Again your thimble is scary thin so I would take apart that figure eight and replace often.
Also, thimbles by dmm and Sterling protect the outside of the rope better, while the rings do this best.
I never had a safebloc but the biggest problem with using it as a POW is with all the friction your gonna have to muscle through to get the rope back up to you.
One big reason why guys really took to rings so quickly over pulleys now adays is that the rings absorb more, and spread out the friction on the lowering line and the anchors. We have come to find that when you spread friction through more points (anchors/redirects) in the tree, it spreads the load out much more evenly on the anchors and tree, in turn making the job safer and stronger.
If you can't find links and info in treebuzz archives then even a Google search will get you very thorough and extensive books and papers on the physics and all the numbers behind it.
There's many reasons many guys prefer the rings over a thimble like your speaking of.
Like brocky said about steel wearing grooves in Riggs shackles and those shackles he used we're doubled up and way thicker than your thimble, not to mention USA made steel.
The rings can be easier to inspect and rotate so you can even out the wear from rope friction.
Again your thimble is scary thin so I would take apart that figure eight and replace often.
Also, thimbles by dmm and Sterling protect the outside of the rope better, while the rings do this best.
I never had a safebloc but the biggest problem with using it as a POW is with all the friction your gonna have to muscle through to get the rope back up to you.
One big reason why guys really took to rings so quickly over pulleys now adays is that the rings absorb more, and spread out the friction on the lowering line and the anchors. We have come to find that when you spread friction through more points (anchors/redirects) in the tree, it spreads the load out much more evenly on the anchors and tree, in turn making the job safer and stronger.
If you can't find links and info in treebuzz archives then even a Google search will get you very thorough and extensive books and papers on the physics and all the numbers behind it.
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CutHighnLetFly
Been here a while
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- Cape Cod, MA
Whoever used the shackles, Daniel Murphy or Riggs, they welded two together too if I remember right.
The key with those thimbles is make sure you don't have running rope on the rope from the sling tucked in the thimble. The other thing is like mentioned making sure it's not cutting the sling or rigging line.
I love x rigging rings but in the recent past have had problems with the anodizing and have given up on being brand specific. I prefer the Antal rings but Tylaska makes good ones too.
I would recommend just sticking with blocks on sappy trees like White Pine when doing full removals. Just smears sap into everything
The key with those thimbles is make sure you don't have running rope on the rope from the sling tucked in the thimble. The other thing is like mentioned making sure it's not cutting the sling or rigging line.
I love x rigging rings but in the recent past have had problems with the anodizing and have given up on being brand specific. I prefer the Antal rings but Tylaska makes good ones too.
I would recommend just sticking with blocks on sappy trees like White Pine when doing full removals. Just smears sap into everything
I would refer you to 1:02 in the vid. Thats what controlled and smooth looks like. Fucking perfect! I will now refer you to 2:35 on the vid. Thats Not control, but a guy simply holding tight with a bunch of wraps. I would also refer you to 2:42. Thats what it looks and feels like when a groundie holds tight on a big negatively rigged log. Not super fun for a climber. Unfortunately the climber left the groundie no other option but to hold tight. The height from which the last logs was cut did not offer enough height for the groundie to let a log that size run. The smart play would have been to take that in 2-3 pieces, which would have allowed the groundie to offer up a nice smooth ride for all. Obviously Fiori is a monster world-class tree-man and it was a super kool watching him throw that log into the rigging, but its not something you want to be doing day in and day out. Eventually it will bite you in the ass.
The ground was shaking because the stump was fucking moving. I sure hope I don't have to explain why that is a bad thing?
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eyehearttrees
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- Tampa-Area
They're 11mm and they're Fusion brand, I just went to double-check my 9.5mm reading and realized my calipers have a weird 'starting-point' so I was off 1.5mm on the earlier measurements, Fusion rings are 11mm and my Blue Moon caliper'd as-expected 11.7mm so calipers are golden (tested the Blue Moon to ensure they were good, that's how I realized I was reading the thing wrong
)~~~~~~~~~~~
Anyone know whether it's OK to use a prusik on a 6', 3-ringed sling to choke it around a spar? I just ordered the X Rigging Rings version it's 2 large rings and 1 XL ring, but it says "for crotches only", which is fine but I can't help think I could use it on spars by simply putting a prusik loop on it with a carabiner on the prusik so, once placed around the spar, I can adjust the prusik and reach its carabiner over to 'grab' the other leg and choke the sling to the tree, it's not like the shock-loading would be hitting the prusik much the prusik's only real force-vector would be horizontal binding of the sling to the tree..
Also ordered a Safebloc because it was $65, unsure WTH I'm going to do with it LOL I love ebay just got that sling for $135 not bad!! Want to use the Safeblock to make a 2-ringed sling, with the Bloc being one of the rings if that makes sense (I hate the idea of only using 1 leg of a sling, it's silly when you can use both to 'basket hitch' and double that rope's strength, also using just 1 rigging-ring isn't rope-friendly for your rigging line I watched David Driver's 30min explanation video(2013) on them and he was adamant about not using any of the single-ringed units as a primary rigging-point, am sure many do but he said that when testing that configuration it was causing all rigging-line failures to occur at the anchor which is obviously not what you want!
So a sling with hardware on each end (like Rig and Ring?)... but choked with a prusik for spar use. With a carabiner.
Can you possibly draw a picture? I’m not seeing how it comes together.
Carabiners have broken before from a climbers body weight dynamically loading them. They won’t stand a chance negative rigging logs down a spar.
I’d feel way safer with the single ring sling and timber hitch.
Can you possibly draw a picture? I’m not seeing how it comes together.
Carabiners have broken before from a climbers body weight dynamically loading them. They won’t stand a chance negative rigging logs down a spar.
I’d feel way safer with the single ring sling and timber hitch.
CanadianStan
Branched out member
- Location
- Western Australia
yo this dude is measuring out his chunks (2:10). Does anyone know what that's about? is he rigging sections for milling down the road or is it purely to know the anticipated weights?
Merle Nelson
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- SF Bay Area, CA
I love using a triple ring sling in the canopy. Easy to do remote set and or retrieval with that too.
On a spar you could use a double ring sling and add a third ring by doing a prusik hitch with the single ring on a short loop.
David Driver and Lawrence Schultz push the envelope rigging big wood into rings and are often running two double ring slings with two 3/4 inch ropes with two lowering devices. Some of that is on youtube and August Hunicke has at least one video of them doing big wood.
On a spar you could use a double ring sling and add a third ring by doing a prusik hitch with the single ring on a short loop.
David Driver and Lawrence Schultz push the envelope rigging big wood into rings and are often running two double ring slings with two 3/4 inch ropes with two lowering devices. Some of that is on youtube and August Hunicke has at least one video of them doing big wood.
Merle Nelson
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- SF Bay Area, CA
August does make stuff watchable.
Merle Nelson
Been here much more than a while
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- SF Bay Area, CA
Lawrence doing what he makes look effortless.
Treetopflyer
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Coastal N.J
Ya know ol dave God rest his soul. he was going to import some fiori rings and we were having talks, there may be a thread about it somewhere. I would like to get at least one of those rings. One thing about rings for negative ringing is how the rigging running line can find it's way in between the tree and ring edge and caution needs played so it's not catastrophic like rope failure comes to mind, especially working with big pieces. The angle of the dangle means a whole lot sometimes. FIORI whom I respect and love what he does on boobtube shows another video on that ring which ways to reeve the line as opposed to the old host sling round the outside and running line through the ring, some of the ways a rope and ring could cross load or become disoriented during the action should be noted . I've came to find pure blocking down wood best served with a sweet arb block because it protects the line on the sheeve better it seems. I know it could be a minor thing in practice most often and rings are so light compared to my impact block, but after lots of tries it's making more sense for me.
Effortless is an understatement. Thats what it looks like when you combine a world class tree-man and a world class groundie. Amazing and inspirational work.
Lawrence doing what he makes look effortless.
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Well written and easy to understand article, by Driver, in the portal. Most of y’all have read it already, but for those that haven’t;
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