How big is too big? or, Is there a too big?

Caballos

Caballos

Location
Charlotte, NC.
What size pieces are too big to rig? I know size is dictated by landing zone usually, but weight wise is there too big? How much do you think are some of your pieces weighing? I'm not talking WLL I'm asking how big do you go? Thanks.
 
These are dangerous questions to be asking, and even more so to be answering. How big to go or not to go depends on so many factors, it's amazing we get anything done. To quote Shakespeare " what is done cannot be undone". The most important factor to remember is that whatever you do in a tree usually can't be taken back. So, why worry about how big you can go. How about, how safely can you go? I don't think I've ever seen an instance where going bigger was the solution or better than taking multiple smaller pieces. Sure you can make one big cut and; worry about something going wrong, have your groundies wrestle it down, then sit in the tree and wait for them to carve it all up and move it, then have them be worn out and work slower instead of steadily.
Just my .02
 
BigWood that is very good advice, but being Canadian I might be biased. Just kidding I could not have said it better and I love the Shakespeare quote. So true.
smile.gif
 
I know what you're saying and I agree. The reason I'm asking is...

If the other factors allow it. And your using half inch double braid (lbs 9,500 tensile strength), and a single block with (WLL) Safe Working Load (lbs 8800), and a large port a wrap. The tree is in good health.

How big of a piece would you cut? Would you max the system? Half the system? A quarter of that? What do you do personally?

I'm in no way condoning unsafe work. Nor, am I asking because I'm going to go try something stupid. I'm simply curious as to what is out there.
 
A lot of times rigging big can save time and be safer. Anytime I can feasibly go big I will. We will rig pieces anywhere from 100-3000+lbs. when the pieces start getting heavy, we will use bull rope to keep the stretch down. It's all about knowing what the piece will do when cut, and being confident in your rigging.
 
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These are dangerous questions to be asking, and even more so to be answering. How big to go or not to go depends on so many factors, it's amazing we get anything done. To quote Shakespeare " what is done cannot be undone". The most important factor to remember is that whatever you do in a tree usually can't be taken back. So, why worry about how big you can go. How about, how safely can you go? I don't think I've ever seen an instance where going bigger was the solution or better than taking multiple smaller pieces. Sure you can make one big cut and; worry about something going wrong, have your groundies wrestle it down, then sit in the tree and wait for them to carve it all up and move it, then have them be worn out and work slower instead of steadily.
Just my .02

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Great points, it's not about just getting it to the ground.

Also saying that, there is times to go big but generally all the stars have to be aligned to make it productive for all involved in the operation.
And remember that the flowers might be annuals but they are the clients flowers not ours one thing broken can out way everything else in the clients eyes.
other than that see above
Love Scotty
 
Caballos with the system you are describing I would not go bgger than 900lbs but you could reasonably get away with 1200lbs using new rope maybe even 1500lbs ( due to the fact that those limits are usually conservative ) but there are too many variables to correctly answer that question. Why not play it safe and stick with 10%WLL which would yield favorable outcomes.

1. Is the rope new. Heavier loads greater than 10% WLL will shorten it's life and definitely cause failure at some point. Is the small time saved ( ? ) worth the damages or heaven forbid an injury.
2. Is the tree sound. You mentioned healthy, but you still need to place the block in a favorable position to decrease shock loading the tree and rig point. Keeping shock loading to a minimum is priority.
3. Can the LZ handle the size and shape of the piece without damaging stuff.
4.Is it a time saver or will the piece be hard for the ground staff to process leaving you twiddling your thumbs. That is counter producive.

For an efficient climber and good smooth rigger cutting smaller manageable pieces is safer and more productive if there is no heavy equipment around that can help get the stuff processed. Add skidstears, log trucks, grapples, cranes and k-booms we are talking a whole different animal which I have no experience with. Just my $.02.
 
To ask this question in the cloud is mute for an answer, however interesting to discuss.
I would choose to not look at it like "how big can we go", and ask how to meet the objective with our values in place.
I personally feel the site, tree, crew skill, equipment, and company values are what makes the decision.
Problem solving must involve clear communication.
 
Caballos look at ChrisB's avatar, he's going way big but he's got the right equipment helping out. The crane, so there adds another variable. Equipment. Very nice shot by the way.
 
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A lot of times rigging big can save time and be safer. Anytime I can feasibly go big I will. We will rig pieces anywhere from 100-3000+lbs. when the pieces start getting heavy, we will use bull rope to keep the stretch down. It's all about knowing what the piece will do when cut, and being confident in your rigging.

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I AM in the "go big or go home" camp too... I see lots of youtube vids with 18" diameter pieces getting negative blocked that are no more than 3-4' long... and think what a waste of time... and energy... that's not safer.. that's boyscout mentality.... at the end of the day everyone had to work longer and harder than needed, which is a safety issue!

I've rigged out some monster limbs with 1/2" true blue that would freak you boyscouts out.... BUT I never would have thought that was possible if I hadn't seen someone else do it first... There's a way to do it safely.. if you don't know how, you better stay in the "lets take it in 2" box...

Sounds like this new guy knows what he is doing and you all are just a little nervous, because you've never seen anything like it before.. Keep and open mind and you might learn something... just watch out for shock loads and compromised tree structures... to that end, I'd lose the 9500 lb double braid and go with 1/2" true blue or 5/8" polydyne

http://www.sherrilltree.com/Professional...igging-Line-1-2

ps.. how's that for sounding arrogant LOL... I've lost patience with all these arbs that think its not safe just because they haven't seen it before... stuck in their smaller is safer box... clueless... you ought to see how pretty going big is when you have the right men ,skill, and equipment...
 
When I first got my skid steer (turf tracks and grapple bucket) cutting from the bucket truck, balance rigged a 30' maple limb, maybe 12-14" diameter.. loader op came in and grabbed it before it even hit the ground. Groundie unties, loader carefully lifts it over all the shrubs and carries it out to the street, and stuffs it into the chipper, untouched by human hands.. two minutes later I've got the rope balance tied to the next 30' limb, getting ready to start the cut, look down to see the last of that monster limb getting sucked through the chipper.

One groundie on the ropes, one stands at the chipper waiting for something to do, with a skid op that knew his $hit, and of course one old az rigger in the bucket.. That loader op was priceless... It was a break through moment.. I looked down and thought "can tree work really be this easy?".... Wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't seen it with my own eyes!

So all you boyscouts can save your "smaller is safer" noise.. I've seen the light and there's no going back!
 
Well first to tell how big I can go I go check the base of the tree for the tensile strength since it's always labeled on there. Then that tells me exactly how big we can go and what gear we need. The bottom line is we have trees that are breaking before our gear. The tree is the week link in most cases now. We have ropes and pulleys that will hold almost the whole tree but the tree won't. We cannot say the tensile strength on this limb is 5000 lbs, so here is our working load limit. It doesn't happen. You can be a boyscout or bad az rigger and still not know when that tree will break. I'm not saying go small or go giant. Be safe and take what you feel comfortable doing and remember shock loading forces and rope angles.
 
Obviously a good point. there was a top notch climber in philly that just about died when the limb he cut smashed into the dead tulip. The tree cracked at the place of impact and the entire top came down with the climber... He was going big, but made mistakes and it cost him.

You could say it would have been safer to stay small... In that tree and situation yes... but not in elm or white oak etc... There's a lot of factors... a good rigger minimizes every one of them and takes no chances if the structure of the tree is compromised... especially with a climber in it..

ie.. its always a good idea to ask yourself "if I make this cut, will I die?".. So of course the downside or risk in case of failure must be considered.. When working from the bucket, over things like fences and shrubs, you have a lot more room to push the limits.. when you're life is at risk you don't! And you can only learn what the limits are by pushing them.

If often not as simple as smaller is safer.. storm damage or a bad top, when you have to make a choice to climb and rig from above the defect, or stay below it and go bigger. Honing your skill, understanding, teamwork and equipment, and pushing the limits to know what you can do with what you got, will give you options that could save your life in such situations..
 
Please keep in mind that, prior to just about every accident in our industry, the victim probably thought they had things under control. Nobody asks themselves the question, "If I make this cut, will I die?", then comes up with the answer of "yes", and then proceeds anyway. Yet climbers are still making cuts that injure or kill them. We all have to make sure we don't confuse getting away with extreme practices and being as good as good as we think we are.
I can think of several pieces I rigged out when I was younger that were enormous and came down safely. However, in retrospect, I would not do it the same again, because I feel like "I got away with it" rather than I had everything "under control".

Josh
 
Forum threads, on TB and just about any other forum that I've been on fall into a few themes. A theme that is really popular, especially with guys, is centered on 'biggest, extreme, most' or some such superlative. It boils down to 'Does size matter?'

When I saw the first post I figured that it would go in one of three directions...and it did, ending in: most participants follow current practices and design rigging setups based on good safety factors. They've chosen ropes that are plenty strong for the loads that are expected. They know that the weakest part of rigging, and most unknown, is the tree. They even know that trees can have hidden weak spots so they tend to take smaller pieces.

There are the others that cut pieces with no regard to the manufacturers ratings. Sure...they get away with overloading and this gives them the false confidence that they're right and the rest of the world is wrong. Time will tell.

For years I've challenged people who say that topping trees is OK because it doesn't kill trees. If they find any documentation, from a credible source, that topping is a legitimate practice, print the article, bring it to a conference where we both attend and I'll eat it.

I'll offer the same challenge here. Find a manufacturer that condones bombing out big chunks onto small ropes, get them to write you a letter...meet me at Expo...I'll eat the letter. As long as I can add some Cholula Sauce

Reckless advice and arrogant attitude needs to be considered...who is the source? What is their credibility?
 
Thanks for the input guys. I know a lot of what you're all saying is based on experience. And how can you define something when every ones experience is different, even if you are working side by side.

I guess I didn't realize that I was questioning experience in practice and not a defined practice. That coupled with personal values, company values, and your job site team makes this a controversial and hard question to answer.

I personally go a bit smaller than what I'm comfortable with, so if I think "yeah I could cut this, it should work, I can envision the outcome and the possible risks of my actions." Then I'll back off from that a bit because I'll feel more comfortable. I also rely on my team for input no matter what their experience level may be, because their perception may shed some light on my situation.

And, safety every step of the way. There isn't anything easier to learn as experience and nothing harder to apply.
 
Daniel,

Your use of 'boyscout' in a pejorative way is offensive.

My Dad was a Scout, my parents were troop leaders for eight years when they first got married, I made it to Star and part way to Life Scout.

Name-calling is a way for bully to browbeat anyone who threatens up to them in a real or imaginary way.
 
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I know what you're saying and I agree. The reason I'm asking is...

If the other factors allow it.
And your using half inch double braid (lbs 9,500 tensile strength),
and a single block with (WLL) Safe Working Load (lbs 8800),
and a large port a wrap. The tree is in good health.

How big of a piece would you cut? Would you max the system? Half the system? A quarter of that? What do you do personally?

I'm in no way condoning unsafe work. Nor, am I asking because I'm going to go try something stupid. I'm simply curious as to what is out there.

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There are many factors involved.
1. Where is the block in relation to the wood being rigged?
2. Is it an 'arborist block' or rescue pulley?
3. How good is the groundsperson?

Sounds like you need some training if you are asking questions like this.

Don't pay any attention to what some buzzers are saying regarding weight.
There's no better way to get hurt or hurt someone else.
 
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