Hiring

[Sfoppema]

Maybe see if you can find a guy in the construction industry who wants a change of pace a few days a week. With this employees market, what is his boss going to do, fire him? If he's any good, the boss wouldn't be able to fire him....

 

[Sfoppema]

or ya like a fireman or cop even

 

[Sfoppema]

or hit the lotto and find a good employee. older guys can run equipment too. I work for a union guy who has run an articulating loader and excavator for like 39 years. He told me when he retires he'll come in and run the avant for me whenever I want him...Lots of guys use older dudes to run log trucks/equipment, or for sales as someone previously mentioned. Unless you luck out, you have to think outside the box a little bit....

 

[Sfoppema]

Or you have to have full time work and pay someone well to come in 2000 hours a year....

 

[Sgfinco]

This industry has so many systemic issues that finding people will never be easy. I'm 26, 7 years of climbing, certified for 4 years, class A CDL, can run machinery, have been running my own small show mainly contract climbing, but still doing my own jobs, just landed a $13k bid so I can bid work, deal with clients, schedule, know my local pathogens, prune very well ( ask @colb ) motivated etc. Give me one good reason to work for anyone? All it takes to start a tree service is the bullheadedness to decide to do it and work all the time. This isn't a great industry for anyone who values family time, wants longevity doing the interesting work, being an employee is tough in this industry if you're the employee everyone wants. The last tree service I worked for paid me $23 an hour. Now I charge $500 per day to climb and have more work contracting than I want. Until we start building positions that allow for meaningful careers, taking care of employees, pushing for our industry to be regulated nothing will change. Tree work is a luxury, no one needs it unless it's an imminent hazard or on their house.

 

[evo]

or ya like a fireman or cop even

Got a firefighter, his heart isn’t in tree work. He is pretty ok, but if there is a lull he zones out and needs coaxing to get back into the game. He is also a fair weather worker. The FD dicks his schedule around so it’s never consistent. Sounds like you have a much larger pool to choose from, construction is bumpin hard right now and they are eating up all the labor.

 

[Sfoppema]

I don't have kids or a wife, but if I did, I'd be spending more time with them than most people who work full time can. I basically take two months off a year and can make my own schedule to allow for anything I want even if I'm busy as hell. Don't have to ask permission. Not sure what you mean about longevity. I know climbers that could kick my ass that are mid 50's and I'm 28... guys go into their 60's+. Need to take care of yourself. Need to be proactive. As Bill Parcells once said:

"Losers assemble is small groups and complain about the coach and other players. Winners assemble as a team and find a way to win"
^^I think we could all apply that quote to tree crews from past/present. I never want my crew to be the former.

I know climbers for larger companies that make 50/hr + with benefits and 401k plus bonus and profit sharing etc. Costs employer 50k just for workers comp. 200k per year to employ that person if not more. That person is invested in the company and has probably been working for some years for the same guys. Company is also invested in them. No one wants to commit to anything, that's the real problem. They just want to show up, work for a week, and complain about how much money they make. Not saying you are like that, but I know lots that are. It's the American Way.

I think you're making some good points, but also sounds like your experience of the broader industry is limited. You can get a job for Davey in my area climbing-starting pay 40/hr to look for Asian long horn beetle. Literally setting lines in trees to climb around looking for bugs. Need bachelor's degree and be certified arborist. After you did that gig for them, if you were a good employee, sky's the limit.

Sounds like you have a good thing going. I'm 28 and started on my own 5 years ago, but I don't have kids and a wife. I remember talking to a dude that worked for Asplundh in Oregon. I was arguing the case that he should go out on his own, but he had four kids and a wife. He said they really took care of him with benefits/salary/401k etc. If you get an injury on your own job, no more contract climbing for you until you're fit to work again. No worker's comp check coming in. You're basically F*#@.

I think the point evo is making, and that others are reinforcing, is that it's hard as a small company to find guys. In his case it sounds like location is also an issue. I can't, and I'm assuming evo can't, as a small company afford to put a guy on at a cost of 150-200k per year no matter what they can do. Those guys are going to companies that are grossing millions or 10's of millions.

Big companies have deep pockets and lots of resources. They definitely pay well, have top of the line safety protocol, top of the line equipment, and provide opportunity for meaningful careers. I'm sure not all of them do, but those jobs are out there.

I subbed for a right of way clearing company in WV for a few months working on a natural gas pipeline. We had 3 separate safety meetings a day, and I got paid stupid money (along with 100 guys all making the same +) as a subcontractor dropping trees and leaving them 6-7 days a week.

I'm ranting now. maybe a few too many beers....

 

[Sgfinco]

I'm in the same boat with a few cocktails so let the ranting begin. Being vested in a company would be worth it, having your pay be tied to production would be worth it. Davey hasn't broken into my area and in the surrounding markets they pay guys just enough to get them to train new guys that are cheaper then fire the guy who trained them. I don't have a bachelor's but I'd love to just climb and look for bugs and prune. These days I get paid for crane work and big rigging and that's about it. Maybe I should talk to big green.
An injury as a contractor is terrifying. I've contracted in a number of States for 20+ companies, but for the most part it's small rag tag operations, where a contract climber has value. In my experience most larger companies would rather buy a lift, let a dummy fly it, and get jobs done, not as fast as it could be but with less investment in the person.
I think for a lot of small guys the contractor model works well, I have two buddies with their own companies, we work together a lot, account for paying each other in our bids and everyone goes home happy and well paid. That way you get guys who are committed and up to snuff, don't compete but collaborate.

 

[Sfoppema]

Yeah I completely agree with that especially the last paragraph. Also agree about the dummies in lifts. I haven't done a crane job in 5 years. I am known in the area as the kid who climbs. Other companies with crane/buckets will refer me to backyard jobs they don't want to do anyway. The business owners are all too old or not interested in climbing. I don't need to spend hundreds of thousands on overhead to compete for easy bucket jobs that every tree company can do and thus have to out bid eachother on. I just wait for the low hanging fruit in the backyard. That's pretty much my meal ticket. None of those companies have climbers for reasons you mentioned or because they're climbing off the ball full time. I have no competition on some of those jobs.

So I guess I'm personally benefitting from this labor issue. The work is only available to me cause other companies can't find guys to hire to do it. It sucks that most people suck, but opens up lots of doors for people that are any good.

Sounds like you've got a good network of guys to work with which you are fortunate to have. Pretty difficult to find people like that I think.

 

[Gorman]

Personally, I’ve been just raising wages slowly until I find people. Not that I pay huge wages, but I definitely know that I’m 2-4 dollars an hour above my competition. I found a guy from the city with tattoos everywhere but for a greenhorn he is unusually sharp and a quick learner.

 

[colb]

Personally, I’ve been just raising wages slowly until I find people. Not that I pay huge wages, but I definitely know that I’m 2-4 dollars an hour above my competition. I found a guy from the city with tattoos everywhere but for a greenhorn he is unusually sharp and a quick learner.

I know this will sound a little odd, but I usually let guys determine their rate. I ask them how much they want and what conditions. When they tell me, I pay them that, and a bit more for a TIP. It usually works out. If it's not, I can tell them it's not working, or not have them working with me. I've found that most guys know their worth, and some rare guys who don't know it also are not the type of person I want on rope. Also, $10 is the new $1. $100 is the new $10. We all need to be pricing stuff for the 2019 economy - wages, estimates, etc. The whole reason why employees are hard to rustle up is that it's just not worth the pay. That's part of why I ask potential employees to name their rate - they are more invested at that point. They have agency at the very start.

@Gorman also want to hold you accountable for that "with tattoos everywhere but", which should be "with tattoos everywhere and". Tattoos and ability to work on trees are two separate things, right?

 

[Sgfinco]

I know this will sound a little odd, but I usually let guys determine their rate. I ask them how much they want and what conditions. When they tell me, I pay them that, and a bit more for a TIP. It usually works out. If it's not, I can tell them it's not working, or not have them working with me. I've found that most guys know their worth, and some rare guys who don't know it also are not the type of person I want on rope. Also, $10 is the new $1. $100 is the new $10. We all need to be pricing stuff for the 2019 economy - wages, estimates, etc. The whole reason why employees are hard to rustle up is that it's just not worth the pay. That's part of why I ask potential employees to name their rate - they are more invested at that point. They have agency at the very start.

@Gorman also want to hold you accountable for that "with tattoos everywhere but", which should be "with tattoos everywhere and". Tattoos and ability to work on trees are two separate things, right?

Well said @colb how long have competent contract climbers been making about $400 per day? 15-20 years? The issue with tree care pricing is of course people are going to go with the near lowest price, everything is more expensive, no one wants to pay 10k to have a tree removed. It's hard to get what we need to live well now because our work doesn't have much worth to the average person. Plus at a proposal every one of us could be talking out of our asses about yard protection. No one knows the quality of the work until it's finished.

And thank you as another tree man with tattoos everywhere that has somehow, against all odds, figured out how to work.

 

[Gorman]

I know this will sound a little odd, but I usually let guys determine their rate. I ask them how much they want and what conditions. When they tell me, I pay them that, and a bit more for a TIP. It usually works out. If it's not, I can tell them it's not working, or not have them working with me. I've found that most guys know their worth, and some rare guys who don't know it also are not the type of person I want on rope. Also, $10 is the new $1. $100 is the new $10. We all need to be pricing stuff for the 2019 economy - wages, estimates, etc. The whole reason why employees are hard to rustle up is that it's just not worth the pay. That's part of why I ask potential employees to name their rate - they are more invested at that point. They have agency at the very start.

@Gorman also want to hold you accountable for that "with tattoos everywhere but", which should be "with tattoos everywhere and". Tattoos and ability to work on trees are two separate things, right?

Who cares?

 

[Serf Life]

how long have competent contract climbers been making about $400 per day? 15-20 years?

That is in my mind a bunch these days. Look at the first threads talking numbers and wages, perty similar. Also why I appreciate those who share their costs and prices on this forum, great for perspective and looking back on. Cost of a F550 15yrs ago vs now, going rate for climber then and now...