allmark
Participating member
I couldnt see the face cut but it appeared to go straight toward where I thi9nk it was. Trunk didnt seem to pull 1 way or the other.
Hinge hold video, close ups
- Thread starter Colin
- Start date
either i am missunderstanding the dialog or the idea of a tapered hinge is to provide eough holding wood to aid the tree to fall in the direction of the notch/scarf. I use the tapered hinge to keep the tree on track thus alowing a leaning stem to be felled in the direction required as opposd to the hinge being torn sideways. Sorry but am i missing something?
no pete
- Location
- SE UK
I have no experience of palms, but i use an open gob cut like that but not as wide when i want the tree to stay on the stump i.e. on a hill for example.
Why were you making the cuts so high above ground level ? I assume that even a palm would stay on the stump if you cut lower ? Seems these palms are alot easier to work on than big broadleaves like oak and beech ?
Why were you making the cuts so high above ground level ? I assume that even a palm would stay on the stump if you cut lower ? Seems these palms are alot easier to work on than big broadleaves like oak and beech ?
- Location
- SE UK
Oh and as for the tapered hinge I think I would agree with Pete_mctree on this one ....
I also agree with Pete, tradionally the tapered hinge is to assist a side line staying true to gun.
But what we did here was used non-leaning trees to see how much influence a taper had on the direction of fall ... little to none. The last pine moved some as it hit the deck but the branches on it were stuck in the ground.
What you saw was the hinge wood breaking on the thick side first then you saw it breaking across the entire hinge ... you could see the taper clearly.
I cut high on a lot of palms to fit them in yards, increases your drop rates heaps. Remember the tops are leafy so if the last foot of leaves brush a gutter etc not much will happen, but if the leaves (fronds) catch a gutter half way down you are gonna get damage. Also when videoing it gets you above plants, distractions etc on the tripod.
But what we did here was used non-leaning trees to see how much influence a taper had on the direction of fall ... little to none. The last pine moved some as it hit the deck but the branches on it were stuck in the ground.
What you saw was the hinge wood breaking on the thick side first then you saw it breaking across the entire hinge ... you could see the taper clearly.
I cut high on a lot of palms to fit them in yards, increases your drop rates heaps. Remember the tops are leafy so if the last foot of leaves brush a gutter etc not much will happen, but if the leaves (fronds) catch a gutter half way down you are gonna get damage. Also when videoing it gets you above plants, distractions etc on the tripod.
- Location
- SE UK
Climb it Eric and knock the top out !
Erik, it looks like the flexibility of the tall hinge went a little way toward negating the effect of the taper. Hard to tell just what all the factors were but it seemed to be hooking to the left just a bit. Perhaps with a skinned tree and a shorter hinge...
if the hinge is tapered enough on smaller diameter trees you can get them to split upwards a kind of partial babers chair which will cause the stem to pull to one side or rotate. I've often seen this happen on pines with a heavy forward lean when the slection of cut was incorrect on not enough wood cut out. Is this the effect you are trying to produce as it will stear the tree as the fibres on one side hold and buckle as opposed to tear as per normal
chris_girard
Branched out member
- Location
- Gilmanton, N.H.
[ QUOTE ]
That isn't a text book open face.
The open face has a top cut of 70o and a bottom cut meeting it upwards at 20o giving you a 90o open face.
[/ QUOTE ]
Kevin, in logging we would call this a V Notch or Ultra Wide Faced Notch. As you probably know since the notch has a wider face it will fall further before it closes and snaps off. We usually use them on trees felled down a steep slope.
Chris
That isn't a text book open face.
The open face has a top cut of 70o and a bottom cut meeting it upwards at 20o giving you a 90o open face.
[/ QUOTE ]
Kevin, in logging we would call this a V Notch or Ultra Wide Faced Notch. As you probably know since the notch has a wider face it will fall further before it closes and snaps off. We usually use them on trees felled down a steep slope.
Chris
- Location
- Bloomington, Indiana
[ QUOTE ]
But what we did here was used non-leaning trees to see how much influence a taper had on the direction of fall ... little to none.
[/ QUOTE ]
But that doesn't prove that a tapered hinge doesn't work on leaning trees. If you had put a side rope on the same tree, the side rope would not have had any effect either.
As Spydey pointed out:
[ QUOTE ]
...the narrow part of hinge is on forward/bakcward axis and has less leverage than the length across of the hinge.
[/ QUOTE ]
In an earlier post you had said:
[ QUOTE ]
But there was no one sentence conclusion as to whether or not a tapered hinge on a straight tree has any effect.
[/ QUOTE ]
In the post immediately prior to yours, Spydey had concluded:
[ QUOTE ]
Great effort but ya need sidelean to empower the the tapered fully; without that the results will be marginal/ not needed/ not used.
[/ QUOTE ]
You beleive that a side rope can influence a leaning tree, but a side rope will have no effect on a straight tree. So too, a tapered hinge.
But what we did here was used non-leaning trees to see how much influence a taper had on the direction of fall ... little to none.
[/ QUOTE ]
But that doesn't prove that a tapered hinge doesn't work on leaning trees. If you had put a side rope on the same tree, the side rope would not have had any effect either.
As Spydey pointed out:
[ QUOTE ]
...the narrow part of hinge is on forward/bakcward axis and has less leverage than the length across of the hinge.
[/ QUOTE ]
In an earlier post you had said:
[ QUOTE ]
But there was no one sentence conclusion as to whether or not a tapered hinge on a straight tree has any effect.
[/ QUOTE ]
In the post immediately prior to yours, Spydey had concluded:
[ QUOTE ]
Great effort but ya need sidelean to empower the the tapered fully; without that the results will be marginal/ not needed/ not used.
[/ QUOTE ]
You beleive that a side rope can influence a leaning tree, but a side rope will have no effect on a straight tree. So too, a tapered hinge.
- Location
- Gibsons BC
the only time a tapered hinge is used to direct the fall of a tree is when the hinge is altered as the tree begins to move. it's not likely of much use to an arborist working in backyards but for professional fallers in tall skinny timber it's a fact they prove many times a day. it's an absolute truth in many situations, i've seen it countless times. if the tree is going a little to the left, nip a bit of hinge on that side and it'll swing back, and vice versa.
- Location
- Ontario, Canada
It will depend on the taper and length of the hinge.
If the hinge goes across the entire face it won't have the same affect as a tapered hinge that goes across half the face.
If you want to pull the tree substantially then the length of the hinge should also be reduced in conjunction with the taper.
If the hinge goes across the entire face it won't have the same affect as a tapered hinge that goes across half the face.
If you want to pull the tree substantially then the length of the hinge should also be reduced in conjunction with the taper.
Can't really tell all of what was going on in the tapered hinge short.
I do think that the higher backcut may well have joined with the slight slant. But then again, might not have made any difference.
G Beranek, The Fundamentals of General Tree Work, page 298:
"A hinge that is uneven will tend to pull a straight tree to the side that has more wood. The tree will land somewhere between the gun of the undercut and the gun of the back cut. This is an applicable hinge for controlling trees with side lean or offset limb weight .....
Page 322:
"Wood in the Hinge
It is a fairly common practice to leave more wood on the tension side of the stump or hinge. It helps quite a bit to control drift. How much more wood to leave is governed by a gut felling more than anything else. As a rule of thumb, leave half as much wood in a light side leaner and twice as much in a moderate side leaner."
I do believe the wood you are working has a lot to do with the tapered hinge success. I cut a lot of dead softwood and don't see much happening there. I still do it to help with light side leans. By no means would I try and sell that snake oil overall, in that wood.
I do think that the higher backcut may well have joined with the slight slant. But then again, might not have made any difference.
G Beranek, The Fundamentals of General Tree Work, page 298:
"A hinge that is uneven will tend to pull a straight tree to the side that has more wood. The tree will land somewhere between the gun of the undercut and the gun of the back cut. This is an applicable hinge for controlling trees with side lean or offset limb weight .....
Page 322:
"Wood in the Hinge
It is a fairly common practice to leave more wood on the tension side of the stump or hinge. It helps quite a bit to control drift. How much more wood to leave is governed by a gut felling more than anything else. As a rule of thumb, leave half as much wood in a light side leaner and twice as much in a moderate side leaner."
I do believe the wood you are working has a lot to do with the tapered hinge success. I cut a lot of dead softwood and don't see much happening there. I still do it to help with light side leans. By no means would I try and sell that snake oil overall, in that wood.
Ekka:
That notch is often called a bird’s mouth in the Western US.
It does offer the benefit of allowing the butt to drop quickly.
There is no reason that a 70-90 degree face has to be shaped in the traditional manner. Unless you're paid strictly by commercial product. (The traditional open face shape is utilized to a large degree because it doesn't impact the butt log merchantability significantly.)
So if you're not on a commercial operation, consider inverting a wider notch on heavy leaner. A Humboldt with a little more. If you widen the notch on the bottom of a heavy leaner it means less cutting. I had a 45" dbh heavy leaner a few months ago and doing a traditional open face would have been fairly stupid on that big of tree.
That notch is often called a bird’s mouth in the Western US.
It does offer the benefit of allowing the butt to drop quickly.
There is no reason that a 70-90 degree face has to be shaped in the traditional manner. Unless you're paid strictly by commercial product. (The traditional open face shape is utilized to a large degree because it doesn't impact the butt log merchantability significantly.)
So if you're not on a commercial operation, consider inverting a wider notch on heavy leaner. A Humboldt with a little more. If you widen the notch on the bottom of a heavy leaner it means less cutting. I had a 45" dbh heavy leaner a few months ago and doing a traditional open face would have been fairly stupid on that big of tree.
- Location
- Ontario, Canada
[ QUOTE ]
The traditional open face shape is utilized to a large degree because it doesn't impact the butt log merchantability significantly.)
[/ QUOTE ]
The Humboldt is utilized to a large degree because it doesn't impact the butt log merchantability significantly.
The open face is generally used to keep the tree on the stump or when felling down hill or a back leaning tree.
The traditional open face shape is utilized to a large degree because it doesn't impact the butt log merchantability significantly.)
[/ QUOTE ]
The Humboldt is utilized to a large degree because it doesn't impact the butt log merchantability significantly.
The open face is generally used to keep the tree on the stump or when felling down hill or a back leaning tree.
Kevin:
The wider opening of the open face is what works for the hinge controlling the fall to the ground in most scenarios. You bet.
The shape of the open face, traditional shape if you will, is designed also to not impact the butt log merchantability significantly.
(You had mentioned that Ekka's open face was not typical. Ekka's open face will still hold the hinge just as long as the more traditional face. What it doesn't do is utilize the wood as well. Not a big deal for non-commercial cutters. In most cases for an arborist for just the reason Ekka pointed out.)
The open face out of Scandinavia is meant to go lower than say a Humboldt, thereby not wasting as much of the butt log.
It is meant to not go in as far into the tree, partially to limit impact on butt log merchantability. (Put this in the perspective of second growth (perhaps 22nd growth timber over there). This works in Sweden because smaller trees without much in the way of butt swell can be handled by this method without much difficultly and you can get a maximum utilization of those trees.
A Humboldt is used, typically West Coast, as butt swell is a big item here. The butt of the bottom log is meant to go at the top of the swell. So when the bottom of the Humboldt takes a hunk out of the swell, "it is used to a large degree because it doesn't impact the butt log merchantability significantly."
This is like the old Saturday night live skit, "Stop you're both right it’s a floor wax and a dessert toping."
{An interesting case of how the Humboldt can often fail to utilize wood is what happened during the coast redwood logging days. (Note that I did not say waste wood)
Springboards would be put up to the butt swell top and the tree dropped. Currently these stumps are being logged, 15+ feet tall are common, as Redwood rots slowly they are still good for the most part. This is one of the reasons barely running used Stihl 090's are going for so much in the last couple years.}
Both methods have their merit with regard to greater utilization. In the appropriate setting.
The wider opening of the open face is what works for the hinge controlling the fall to the ground in most scenarios. You bet.
The shape of the open face, traditional shape if you will, is designed also to not impact the butt log merchantability significantly.
(You had mentioned that Ekka's open face was not typical. Ekka's open face will still hold the hinge just as long as the more traditional face. What it doesn't do is utilize the wood as well. Not a big deal for non-commercial cutters. In most cases for an arborist for just the reason Ekka pointed out.)
The open face out of Scandinavia is meant to go lower than say a Humboldt, thereby not wasting as much of the butt log.
It is meant to not go in as far into the tree, partially to limit impact on butt log merchantability. (Put this in the perspective of second growth (perhaps 22nd growth timber over there). This works in Sweden because smaller trees without much in the way of butt swell can be handled by this method without much difficultly and you can get a maximum utilization of those trees.
A Humboldt is used, typically West Coast, as butt swell is a big item here. The butt of the bottom log is meant to go at the top of the swell. So when the bottom of the Humboldt takes a hunk out of the swell, "it is used to a large degree because it doesn't impact the butt log merchantability significantly."
This is like the old Saturday night live skit, "Stop you're both right it’s a floor wax and a dessert toping."
{An interesting case of how the Humboldt can often fail to utilize wood is what happened during the coast redwood logging days. (Note that I did not say waste wood)
Springboards would be put up to the butt swell top and the tree dropped. Currently these stumps are being logged, 15+ feet tall are common, as Redwood rots slowly they are still good for the most part. This is one of the reasons barely running used Stihl 090's are going for so much in the last couple years.}
Both methods have their merit with regard to greater utilization. In the appropriate setting.
- Location
- Ontario, Canada
The birdsmouth has more of a pinch is is more likely to leave the stump.
The Humboldt along with utilizing more of the tree will get the tree on the ground quicker and is better suited for trees that may get hung up.
Any one of these can be placed low on the tree but the saw mill will prefer the Humboldt over anything else.
The Humboldt along with utilizing more of the tree will get the tree on the ground quicker and is better suited for trees that may get hung up.
Any one of these can be placed low on the tree but the saw mill will prefer the Humboldt over anything else.
The birds mouth does not have more of a pinch. Make it 70 or 90 degrees. Same deal from the standpoint of hinge freedom. {I looked at Ekka's video again. I'd estimate 80º, then 90º, then 85º on the three palm tree notches. It sure looks to me like he got the max out of that particular wood and got the trees to drop and shortened the length of ground that the trees impacted.}
Humboldt’s with steep bottoms are good for dropping and helping and also with potential hang-ups.
A Humboldt usually utilizes less of the tree than a conventional face or traditional open face. Since the Humboldt has to be cut up higher on the stem than a conventional, it fails to bring home the 2/3rds of the stem in the area of the backcut. Up higher with the Humboldt backcut, this stays in the woods. Yes, all cuts can be placed low on the tree, it’s just that a conventional can usually be placed the lowest and get the most. Exception, trees being dropped downhill.
OK, so it doesn't make it into lumber, it still is fiber that makes it into building materials.
Side bar: the conventional cut also has its hinge pull wood in this fiber area, not affecting lumber potential. At my Father-in Laws mill, he specified conventional cuts for these two reasons. One of those guys from the depression and a family that had run a mill over a century that never wasted nothing.
It is a miss-statement that a Humboldt is a better cut because it doesn't waste wood at the stump, unless you're dealing with butt swell or downhill falling.
Most mills do prefer the Humboldt. Easier to work with particularly with head rig computer programs that cannot handle anything but a flat cut.
Humboldt’s with steep bottoms are good for dropping and helping and also with potential hang-ups.
A Humboldt usually utilizes less of the tree than a conventional face or traditional open face. Since the Humboldt has to be cut up higher on the stem than a conventional, it fails to bring home the 2/3rds of the stem in the area of the backcut. Up higher with the Humboldt backcut, this stays in the woods. Yes, all cuts can be placed low on the tree, it’s just that a conventional can usually be placed the lowest and get the most. Exception, trees being dropped downhill.
OK, so it doesn't make it into lumber, it still is fiber that makes it into building materials.
Side bar: the conventional cut also has its hinge pull wood in this fiber area, not affecting lumber potential. At my Father-in Laws mill, he specified conventional cuts for these two reasons. One of those guys from the depression and a family that had run a mill over a century that never wasted nothing.
It is a miss-statement that a Humboldt is a better cut because it doesn't waste wood at the stump, unless you're dealing with butt swell or downhill falling.
Most mills do prefer the Humboldt. Easier to work with particularly with head rig computer programs that cannot handle anything but a flat cut.
