Healthy looking trees with massive internal hollows

MikoDel

Participating member
Location
SE PA
Today I was hired by the NEW owner of a house I use to own, to fell a hollowed out tree that, when I was living there, was a concern for me as well. "Is this tree sound? Does it have enough healing around its edges to make up for the insect devastation in its center?" I know there is a GIANT redwood tree somewhere in CA with a huge hollow in its center... with a 2 lane road built thru it! So I understand that the pith and the heartwood represent only a portion of the functional, structural elements integral to the support of a healthy tree.

This particular silver maple I felled today had a host of ants running up and down it, both inside and outside, when I moved into the place in 2006. At one point I put a measuring tape up that gap and it went up 18' before it stopped!! Eighteen feet!! I lived there for 10 years, and during that time (within the 1st few years) I mixed some cement and poured it thru the slit into the bottom portion of the trunk. You can't see the cement cause I didn't have a means to blow the sawdust out of the stump, but probably an inch under that sawdust is concrete. Also there were bats living up in there for a few years and in addition to the frass there was a fair amount of guano falling down. Is that TMI?? LOL

Before I did that I read a few conflicting things re: to fill, or not to fill, a tree's hollow. But all I saw was a ton of frass, completely filling up the bottom portion of the trunk below the tree's opening, and SWARMING carpenter ants everywhere. And I thought to myself, "adding some kind of impediment to keep these insects from freely moving up and down between the earth and the inside of this tree... it's gotta do this tree some good." F'fwd more than a decade, and perhaps I made a good decision pouring in concrete. Now that it's down per the homeowner's request, the sapwood looks like it was doing OK.

What I tell homeowners, time and again, is "I can't tell you with any real degree of certainty that your partially hollowed-out tree is NOT going to fail in average storm conditions for this area. You really need a tree surgeon, or a certified arborist who really knows his/her biology, for assurances like that. But a hollowed portion in the center of a tree does not necessarily mean it's got to go."

I'm not looking for a cheap-fix, one-size-fits-all answer here. But if there are real tree science pros out there with common sense advice about hollow trees, I'd like to hear it. Of course I always look for heaving, fungus... I'm not a certified arborist but I've learned a few things too. Thank you in advance.
 

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Last edited:
Filling hollows went out a century ago.

ants are not termites. They don’t hurt trees and can be beneficial

the answers that you need deserve more attention than a short discussion. There is lots of qualified information, not opinions, available online

even better, get books and read.

hollow trees are not necessarily weak. Again, complex answers

Spend some time searching the archives. In the 20 years of Treebuzz you’ll find lots of helpful info
 
I will second what Tom said. Filling trees with concrete, foam, or anything else generally just locks in moisture and causes more decay rather than helping the tree

Ants do not damage trees, they prefer dead/decaying wood, so if your tree has ants it has another problem already. Look at ants as a symptom of a problem, not as an actual problem

Without taking measurements I cannot say for certain, but to my eye that tree appeared to have plenty of wood to support the trunk, if I recall correctly a tree only needs 1.5-2” solid wood per inch diameter to be considered structurally sound. A bit more is needed to make up for a gap through the trunk wall, but that’s a narrow gap, so not much more wood is actually needed on that tree.
 
Really rough rule of thumb:
Measure the diameter of the tree.
Measure the solid wood.
If the solid comprises 1/3 of the total diameter, there is almost no strength loss.

The seam weakens it more. I agree with @Reach "to my eye that tree appeared to have plenty of wood to support the trunk".

Another vote for NO concrete!!

Final thought: you removed a tree based on incomplete data/knowledge. If that is what the owner wanted, OK so be it. But if they wanted not know if the tree presented a significant risk if left, you did them a big disservice by not having an expert evaluation done before removing it.
 
OP images doesn’t seem too bad in all honesty. What were potential targets? Looks like maybe some play areas that are unlikely to be in usage when the tree would likely fail (high wind and storm events). And the tree would be more likely to get hung up in other trees before causing damage; although that presents a challenge in itself. There’s an image somewhere of a massive cottonwood next to a home with a cavity the size of a room.

I hope your saw didn’t find that concrete you poured.
 
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No, the homeowner wanted the tree out. He wasn't at all interested in a threat assessment. The house was an open target if that maple had fallen west. Yeah I thought I'd get some fur up w/the concrete story. This job was actually supposed to be removing a hanger, which I did. It wasn't until after that was done that he asked me to take the other tree down. Oh well, he has my old VC Intrepid pre-1988 stove. The wood will not be wasted.
 
If you put a bull rope in that tree and tried to pull it over with your truck, you would have failed.

These 4 trees below were retained in high-target locations. Ants, concrete? Paranoia strikes deep.

http://www.historictreecare.com/wp-...ve-Dendro-The-Case-of-the-Deathly-Hollows.pdf

GetClipboardImage.ashx
 

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