Glued splices
- Thread starter Tom Dunlap
- Start date
dspacio
Branched out member
- Location
- Narragansett Bay
I did boat-building with fiberglass and carbon-fiber seasonally for a few years. I have a few thoughts.
First impression is that sewn splices work.
It would be challenging to get epoxy to saturate rope, it would likely pour all over the place. If a syringe were poked between a few strands, one could get some.. but my hunch is that this would be a huge mess. A worn out, hairy rope would actually work better than a new smooth one.
There are types of carbon fiber cloth called "pre-preg" that has the resin already saturated within it. The material is kept refrigerated, and to set, it needs to be baked at high heat. I wouldn't do that to the rope.
this is how I would approach a "sewn" eye splice, with epoxy techniques:
Lay the rope out with the eye formed and rope tapered,
Cut a strip of fiberglass or even carbon fiber (looks bad-ass) about 2" (length of splice) by ~4" (~10 rope widths or something),
lay fiber on a metal/smooth work surface,
mix epoxy, soak and saturate glass/fiber, and do ones best to soak the rope area too,
wrap the glass/fiber tightly as possible around the splice area.
after it dried, sand smooth with 120
in boat-building, we use vacuum bags to get these kind of bonds to be super tight, and fully soaked with resin. This would be challenging/impossible on a soft substance like rope, because air would travel between fibers.
The process I described above, I would be very suspect of how it would hold up, as it is expecting a lot from glue bonding to the rope.
There could be some agent that would break bonds in the rope surface to get it ready to bond with resin... that's beyond my range, I do the part where the hands.. do the thing...
I can imagine other elaborate ways to carry this out. If the glass fiber weaved through the rope a bit, my confidence would raise a lot.
That said, I'm unsure of its practical utility. It could be pursued as a labor-intensive and totally indestructible option.
Epoxy can be irritating to work with outside of environments that are set up for it, in my experience.
That said, I was considering painting epoxy around a sewn splice just to protect it, because I forgot to put the rubber heatseal stuff on before closing the loop.
My impression is that the action of rope working with rope is known and trustworthy, more than attempting the chemical interactions needed for good gripping. We make up a lot of wild stuff in the boat world, yet bonding various materials together is not as free-wheeling.. some bonds are MUCH stronger than others.
Interesting to think about anyway. Maybe I will resin that little prusik stitch to see what happens.
First impression is that sewn splices work.
It would be challenging to get epoxy to saturate rope, it would likely pour all over the place. If a syringe were poked between a few strands, one could get some.. but my hunch is that this would be a huge mess. A worn out, hairy rope would actually work better than a new smooth one.
There are types of carbon fiber cloth called "pre-preg" that has the resin already saturated within it. The material is kept refrigerated, and to set, it needs to be baked at high heat. I wouldn't do that to the rope.
this is how I would approach a "sewn" eye splice, with epoxy techniques:
Lay the rope out with the eye formed and rope tapered,
Cut a strip of fiberglass or even carbon fiber (looks bad-ass) about 2" (length of splice) by ~4" (~10 rope widths or something),
lay fiber on a metal/smooth work surface,
mix epoxy, soak and saturate glass/fiber, and do ones best to soak the rope area too,
wrap the glass/fiber tightly as possible around the splice area.
after it dried, sand smooth with 120
in boat-building, we use vacuum bags to get these kind of bonds to be super tight, and fully soaked with resin. This would be challenging/impossible on a soft substance like rope, because air would travel between fibers.
The process I described above, I would be very suspect of how it would hold up, as it is expecting a lot from glue bonding to the rope.
There could be some agent that would break bonds in the rope surface to get it ready to bond with resin... that's beyond my range, I do the part where the hands.. do the thing...
I can imagine other elaborate ways to carry this out. If the glass fiber weaved through the rope a bit, my confidence would raise a lot.
That said, I'm unsure of its practical utility. It could be pursued as a labor-intensive and totally indestructible option.
Epoxy can be irritating to work with outside of environments that are set up for it, in my experience.
That said, I was considering painting epoxy around a sewn splice just to protect it, because I forgot to put the rubber heatseal stuff on before closing the loop.
My impression is that the action of rope working with rope is known and trustworthy, more than attempting the chemical interactions needed for good gripping. We make up a lot of wild stuff in the boat world, yet bonding various materials together is not as free-wheeling.. some bonds are MUCH stronger than others.
Interesting to think about anyway. Maybe I will resin that little prusik stitch to see what happens.
- Location
- Retired in Minneapolis
@dspacio Thanks for your insights and experiences
My idea for a glued splice is to use an adhesive that is much more flexible than an epoxy. More like what we know from silicone adhesives or sealers.
There are industrial adhesives that hold cars,, planes and ships together. How its done I have no clue. After seeing some of the applications it seems simple to glue ropes together...if there were a market. Right now, it might not be.
The 'how' of this in my vision is a two part mold that holds the rope in place. Then there are injectors that squirt the glue into the rope, surrounding all of the fibers. Vacuum and pressure injection seems to be the way to distribute the adhesive.
Splicing and sewing are amazing...what's next?
I read an article about how the ropes used in the parachute for one of the Mars rovers were tested. NASA shot a rocket with the test ropes packed away. At its apex the rocket stopped and the payload dropped back to earth. This is the only way they could generate enough impact to test the cordage and splices.
In about 2004 I was at the ACCT conference. Sterling rope was at the trade show. I had a discussion with a rep about sewing splices for arborists. The response was cool. The rep didn't seem at all interested. Fortunately they rethought the idea of sewn splices for arbos.
My idea for a glued splice is to use an adhesive that is much more flexible than an epoxy. More like what we know from silicone adhesives or sealers.
There are industrial adhesives that hold cars,, planes and ships together. How its done I have no clue. After seeing some of the applications it seems simple to glue ropes together...if there were a market. Right now, it might not be.
The 'how' of this in my vision is a two part mold that holds the rope in place. Then there are injectors that squirt the glue into the rope, surrounding all of the fibers. Vacuum and pressure injection seems to be the way to distribute the adhesive.
Splicing and sewing are amazing...what's next?
I read an article about how the ropes used in the parachute for one of the Mars rovers were tested. NASA shot a rocket with the test ropes packed away. At its apex the rocket stopped and the payload dropped back to earth. This is the only way they could generate enough impact to test the cordage and splices.
In about 2004 I was at the ACCT conference. Sterling rope was at the trade show. I had a discussion with a rep about sewing splices for arborists. The response was cool. The rep didn't seem at all interested. Fortunately they rethought the idea of sewn splices for arbos.
dspacio
Branched out member
- Location
- Narragansett Bay
I think you are spot on. clamp the mold over the ropes and figure how to squeeze it in there.
and it's true, epoxy is less strong to impacts, where other flexible adhesives exist.
it's always intriguing mixing the technologies across fields. the x-rings are a great example of that. next time I speak with my friend there I will ask him about it. he learned directly from the guys who invented vacuum-bagging for the America's Cup boats in lil Rhody. He creates all sorta weird set-ups to pump resin through incredibly strong bowsprits, beams, etc.
- Location
- Retired in Minneapolis
FI and NASCAR etc glue lots of things together.
Joeybagodonuts
Participating member
- Location
- Boondocks
That's the first thing I thought of.
Also, I do recall Mumford / @Yoyoman doing one of his break tests on a peice of cordage someone sent in with a glued eye splice. IIRC, I recall laughing at the idea, but in the end was surprised at how long it actually held on...
I have no idea which of his videos it was, but it's out there somewhere.
ghostice
Been here a while
So, to followup a bit on the glued splices thing, I'm currently antagonizing the crap outa some old rope with a Speedy Stitcher hoping to make a sewn splice a la Moss (thanks for your posts guy). On one end of an old CE lanyard hunk, a few years ago I had Freesoled the termination, wrapped it with whipping twine and then heat shrunk the end with some Treestuff tubing. Figured this woud be OK for an end termination for what I was using it for. So, it is now some years later and just for the heck of it I took off the heatshrink and tried to pull the glued ends apart - with pliars - nada. It's like rock. I am not going to rely on Freesole (a polyurethane goop I've used on old Wellco boots that even survived tramping on pretty hot Icelandic volcanic rock in one of their parks) as the only means of securing a splice, but I bet it adds a whole lot of strength to prevent movement of the rope legs. Pic attached. No discernable effect on the CE lanyard rope fibers for the two years anyway. Will try this as coating on a sewn splice I'm doing - sorta like Teufelbergers coating for their splices.
Not meant as defiitive practice or even any kind of high powered scientific research, just info.
Cheers
Pic of the termination with the shrink tubing removed to show just the cured glue:
Not meant as defiitive practice or even any kind of high powered scientific research, just info.
Cheers
Pic of the termination with the shrink tubing removed to show just the cured glue:
Attachments
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- Location
- Retired in Minneapolis
@ghostice Nice addition.
My imagination sees a pressurized system of pushing glue into the material. Maybe using needles to go deep. I know it can be done and meet breakage specs. 3M has done some amazing things with adhesives.
The issue would be getting a glued splice accepted by end-users. Tough sell a the beginning I think.
My imagination sees a pressurized system of pushing glue into the material. Maybe using needles to go deep. I know it can be done and meet breakage specs. 3M has done some amazing things with adhesives.
The issue would be getting a glued splice accepted by end-users. Tough sell a the beginning I think.
It wasn't so long ago that sewn terminations were looked upon as some sort of voodoo witchcraft.
- Location
- Retired in Minneapolis
Exactly! and before that...SRT and collar cuts...skeptical bunch isn't it?
Back some years ago I did work with thinned urethane into spectra, vectran and kevlar. Thinning was the trick. At the same time we were using rubber conveyor belt two-part glue that ended up between plastic and rubber in flexibility. We thinned that too for penetration. Nasty chemicals. The glue totally out strengthed the urethane. Think Samson Samthane that wears off. More of a fuzz management tool.
- Location
- Retired in Minneapolis
@Bart_ Was that for end dipping or....????
ghostice
Been here a while
The Freesole type stuff is I think a flexible poyurethane - it has to cure overnight, probably moisture cure. It is flexible and tough as nails (use it on boot soles). Even though it is quite viscous from the tube (about like honey) it will flow and level and it does penetrate rope, even tight weave like the CE lanyard (and also stitching). For the whip end, I just gobbed it on the folded rope and put the shrink over it and heated as normal. Took a long time to cure (moisture had harder time getting in there) but dry it did and it is really durable (withstood attack by pliars). I actually think, seeing it doesn't seem to affect the rope (or stitching), it may be at least a partial solution to some of the rope movement experienced by folks in the "sewn splice" thread (as is the pre-compression Moss has outlined previously). And I have used it for end dipping ropes as well. Cheers all.
Tom, we were making robotic device "tendons" which redirected over pulleys and some ran on cam profiled anchors. Pure parallel lay. We also were bonding kevlar cloth into pressure vessel shapes that articulated. Different time in my life. Hope it didn't give me cancer somewhere down the road. I think it's pretty difficult to get trichloroethane these days.
ConeCollector
Participating member
- Location
- Northern California
The technology used for “seam welding” polyester for the garment industry may have some applications across to other fiber technologies. The proof for any rope terminations system should always be grounded and validated in rigorous testing and transparent data. We may not be so far from self arranging nano particles to create our rope.
material science seems to move faster than social science.
material science seems to move faster than social science.
In an industrial setting, we used Fiberglas-like patch kits to repair pipes (usually 6-12") when it was not practical to take them out of service for a proper replacement. The circumference of the pipe has to be wrapped. The resin saturated cloth shrinks as it cures and always seemed to stop leaks, at least up to 150 psi service pressure. Seems like a similar wrap could substitute for a crimped fitting. The shrinkage of the wrap probably couldn't match the crimping force of a metal fitting, but the adhesive could make up the difference.
Or maybe a slip on eye fitting that glues onto the end of a rope. Perhaps with a center screw or ring shank prong to bond with the core.
But who knows where technology will take us. One day, they may be saying "Look at those guys! They're using ropes and saws. It's like something out of the 2020s."
Or maybe a slip on eye fitting that glues onto the end of a rope. Perhaps with a center screw or ring shank prong to bond with the core.
But who knows where technology will take us. One day, they may be saying "Look at those guys! They're using ropes and saws. It's like something out of the 2020s."
is there any way I can get a name of this product? I may have a use lol
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