Cow hitch roll out

hammsarborcare

hammsarborcare

New member
Location
Wisconsin
Earlier this summer my son Taylor and I were taking care of some storm work. It was a horizontally hung limb involving two trees. Taylor placed a block in each tree and secured both ends with separate ropes and we had two GRCS' for lowering the limb. I was alone on the ground so having the rig lines secured in the GRCS' worked well. Taylor secured the but with a cow hitch but when cut the limb rolled away from the choke of the hitch which ended up pulling the choke over the two half hitches. When I told the story I had some arborist deny that a properly tied cow hitch could not roll out. That might be true on a vertically held rig, but what if a horizontally held rig rolls in an unintended direction. Lesson?: If in doubt in such a scenario tie a clove hitch. it is very directionally forgiving. I happen to be filming it so I'll include the video here. It will cause me to look at horizontal rigs in a slightly different light...after 25 years:)

 
I have had some cow hitches start to roll out under extreme loading if they are not properly tied, dressed, and set with a half hitch backing it up. That is the key in my experience. A cow hitch with a better half or two is way more secure than a clove in my experience. I too have had cloves roll out with less than desirable results.
 
Last edited:
I call it a Stilson hitch and the Stilson always includes a half hitch.

I don't think it is possible to roll out. Never had one do it, anyway.

No way is a clove hitch as good.
 
I thought I've read that the cow hitch is weakest when pulling perpendicular to the log - that is, it can untie itself when pulled in that direction.
 
I have seen a cow hitch with 2 half hitches actively rolling out (coming undone) when being pulled perpendicular... it's fine for side to side, or up and down, but I don't like it for a straight pull... as far as the endline clove hitch, don't get me started, it's the worst of the lot... I use the Daisy Chain hitch for everything, most people use a running bow, to each his own... with a half hitch keeper when necessary... that's what I love about tree work, there's a hundred ways to get a job done...

What really stood out about this post for me is: you guys have 2 GRCS's ??? Damn...... (y):cool:

Patrick
 
The real proper control of rope load of the frictions, nips and grips is all from the seating to the host, thru the deformity of the radial arcs.
Picking/craning straight up or rigging down verticals with only vertical movement is 1 risk level.
Rigging to side, hinge down, or our extreme inversions of 'negative rigging' greater risk levels.
.
In rigging to side etc., can see a binary of pull this way on Cow tightens and this way loosens.
Would always rig any pre-fix Half Hitch (that fixes a lot of things) to likewise pull close, not open in binary logic of force direction choices.
.
But a spinning load shift, inside the microcosm of knot internals is totally different animal attacking at the heart of the works.
One thing it shows bounds loose enough/not set against allowing the spin...
But, also, the radial motion, can pick the tumblers of the radial arcs , that give all the greatest levels of control of said radial arcs.
Have seen i believe where spin EITHER direction of load inside turns draw in more Standing Part(SPart) or Bitter End(BE) or BOTH(which seems Cow could do at least in 1 direction) into the knot microcosm for extra play. The spinning load can be as a heavy cranking leverage, the frictions as gear teeth cranking then the locks of rope arcs to more 'open'.
Would always rig from highest part of limb/especially if CoG position or have upward tether defending against rotation when obvious.
Just don't want load shift from within the rope, maybe with the rope, but not from inside the radial control microcosm with radial force..
.
Note where the first Half Hitch(HH)stopper holds tho too.
The 1st HH pulling/travelling thru the worst/loosest nip area of the Cow, on the SPart/load pull side.
But, luckily stops as pulls uphill forcewise (downhill visually) into tighter and tighter nip under the radial arc cap towards the keystone/arc apex of 2xForce potential nip,
along the most loaded and rigid ropePart of the SPart.
It gets past the more nominal nips on SPart's face/half circle side of load.
Slows and STOPS(after running start) as getting into the real arc nip forces on opposing side of load from SPart.
It does NOT get to the premium/apex/keystone point of Primary Arc from SPart of ultimate nip tightness against host/load(only makes it so far towards thru the increasing nip pressures).
This apex/keystone point of Primary Arc is the most responding part of the rope to the loading, potentially greater force against the host than the source force down the SPart feed.
Maybe CoG was plumb bobbed pure down at that point too, but maybe not and stopped by this increasing nip force/action.
.

Minimal Example of Nip pressures around from SPart:
Half-hitch-arcs-and-linears.png

In simplest Half Hitch(HH) -terminating, not pre-fix pass thru form;
The ropeParts hugging host for potential nip positions is all more horizontal byproduct force to a vertical load pull on the SPart side. Not so much the vertical force directly from load.
The opposing side of the host 180 arc, that load locks into opposite the SPart feed tho,
gives nip force of the primary vertical force of the load and then also the usual horizontal secondary/byproduct force COMBINED for nip. Not just the lesser horizontal byproduct force on SPart side as nip.
.
Importance of Round:
The controlling nips, frictions and grips is only at the deformities, as a byproduct of the loss of linear efficiency.
On a 4x4/cornered/linear faced host/load, this would only be at the corners of deformity, NOT the linear side traces. The round host/load gives a much broader, usable range of deformity for this of full rope force for nip that in linear faces is only fond at corner deformations, not the straight linear run of the faces between corners..
Radial is an organic flow of force that avails to this.
Linear sides/corner not arc redirects of direction; are an abortive, harsh, RESET of the force , not organic flow of force. A round host/load lends the arc functions to a rope, that a squared or even 'rounder' stop sign shape host/load cannot.
But spinning inside round is an Achille's Heel to the form!
Numbers:
SPart trace around in HH is a linear input to the point where opposing face starts/primary arc starts/conversion to radial control.
The 90degree feeding off that 180 primary arc and coming back around SPart is more of a rounded corner than arc pressures for nip. These are the least pressure nip points, ABoK warning of danger (use 2 HHs; i think of stop like hitch pin and keeper of the stop like cotter key) slide of HH stoppers stopped as getting into the tighter parts of the real force here, the arc.
Would say HH slid to ~45degrees from keystone/apex?
>>In lossless/friction free model that would be (.707 cosine + .707 sine )xLoad=1.4.14 xLoad nip pressure @45 degrees from keystone/apex, and dared to creep further into tighter...
>>as nip potential continues to increase until keystone/apex of 2xLoad from (1cosine + 1cosine)xLoad=2xLoad potential.(thus uphill forcewise model, where luckily HH could not make it the whole way).
.
Taking the load linear directional, axis as the benchmark cosine of 1 dimension;
The SPart side on round host of the HH employs only sine force;
But the turn, 180arc side on the opposing round face from SPart pull uses cosine and sine for nip!
The SPart side uses only part of the rope force, sine xTension only, the opposing side uses ALL rope tensions, {sine+cosine}xTension.
ABoK shows even more secure nip in fig8 styles of HH(#1666) and Timber(#1668), that mostly delay the nip some degrees From SPart. Eventually reaching for the keystone position of best nip in the apex of the primary arc(#1663) as these forces are traced thru his lessons to these same points that the maths show....


Certainly an eye opener example to show, TY!
 
TheTreeSpyder said:
The real proper control of rope load of the frictions, nips and grips is all from the seating to the host, thru the deformity of the radial arcs.
Picking/craning straight up or rigging down verticals with only vertical movement is 1 risk level.
Rigging to side, hinge down, or our extreme inversions of 'negative rigging' greater risk levels.
.
In rigging to side etc., can see a binary of pull this way on Cow tightens and this way loosens.
Would always rig any pre-fix Half Hitch (that fixes a lot of things) to likewise pull close, not open in binary logic of force direction choices.
.
But a spinning load shift, inside the microcosm of knot internals is totally different animal attacking at the heart of the works.
One thing it shows bounds loose enough/not set against allowing the spin...
But, also, the radial motion, can pick the tumblers of the radial arcs , that give all the greatest levels of control of said radial arcs.
Have seen i believe where spin EITHER direction of load inside turns draw in more Standing Part(SPart) or Bitter End(BE) or BOTH(which seems Cow could do at least in 1 direction) into the knot microcosm for extra play. The spinning load can be as a heavy cranking leverage, the frictions as gear teeth cranking then the locks of rope arcs to more 'open'.
Would always rig from highest part of limb/especially if CoG position or have upward tether defending against rotation when obvious.
Just don't want load shift from within the rope, maybe with the rope, but not from inside the radial control microcosm with radial force..
.
Note where the first Half Hitch(HH)stopper holds tho too.
The 1st HH pulling/travelling thru the worst/loosest nip area of the Cow, on the SPart/load pull side.
But, luckily stops as pulls uphill forcewise (downhill visually) into tighter and tighter nip under the radial arc cap towards the keystone/arc apex of 2xForce potential nip,
along the most loaded and rigid ropePart of the SPart.
It gets past the more nominal nips on SPart's face/half circle side of load.
Slows and STOPS(after running start) as getting into the real arc nip forces on opposing side of load from SPart.
It does NOT get to the premium/apex/keystone point of Primary Arc from SPart of ultimate nip tightness against host/load(only makes it so far towards thru the increasing nip pressures).
This apex/keystone point of Primary Arc is the most responding part of the rope to the loading, potentially greater force against the host than the source force down the SPart feed.
Maybe CoG was plumb bobbed pure down at that point too, but maybe not and stopped by this increasing nip force/action.
.

Minimal Example of Nip pressures around from SPart:
Half-hitch-arcs-and-linears.png

In simplest Half Hitch(HH) -terminating, not pre-fix pass thru form;
The ropeParts hugging host for potential nip positions is all more horizontal byproduct force to a vertical load pull on the SPart side. Not so much the vertical force directly from load.
The opposing side of the host 180 arc, that load locks into opposite the SPart feed tho,
gives nip force of the primary vertical force of the load and then also the usual horizontal secondary/byproduct force COMBINED for nip. Not just the lesser horizontal byproduct force on SPart side as nip.
.
Importance of Round:
The controlling nips, frictions and grips is only at the deformities, as a byproduct of the loss of linear efficiency.
On a 4x4/cornered/linear faced host/load, this would only be at the corners of deformity, NOT the linear side traces. The round host/load gives a much broader, usable range of deformity for this of full rope force for nip that in linear faces is only fond at corner deformations, not the straight linear run of the faces between corners..
Radial is an organic flow of force that avails to this.
Linear sides/corner not arc redirects of direction; are an abortive, harsh, RESET of the force , not organic flow of force. A round host/load lends the arc functions to a rope, that a squared or even 'rounder' stop sign shape host/load cannot.
But spinning inside round is an Achille's Heel to the form!
Numbers:
SPart trace around in HH is a linear input to the point where opposing face starts/primary arc starts/conversion to radial control.
The 90degree feeding off that 180 primary arc and coming back around SPart is more of a rounded corner than arc pressures for nip. These are the least pressure nip points, ABoK warning of danger (use 2 HHs; i think of stop like hitch pin and keeper of the stop like cotter key) slide of HH stoppers stopped as getting into the tighter parts of the real force here, the arc.
Would say HH slid to ~45degrees from keystone/apex?
>>In lossless/friction free model that would be (.707 cosine + .707 sine )xLoad=1.4.14 xLoad nip pressure @45 degrees from keystone/apex, and dared to creep further into tighter...
>>as nip potential continues to increase until keystone/apex of 2xLoad from (1cosine + 1cosine)xLoad=2xLoad potential.(thus uphill forcewise model, where luckily HH could not make it the whole way).
.
Taking the load linear directional, axis as the benchmark cosine of 1 dimension;
The SPart side on round host of the HH employs only sine force;
But the turn, 180arc side on the opposing round face from SPart pull uses cosine and sine for nip!
The SPart side uses only part of the rope force, sine xTension only, the opposing side uses ALL rope tensions, {sine+cosine}xTension.
ABoK shows even more secure nip in fig8 styles of HH(#1666) and Timber(#1668), that mostly delay the nip some degrees From SPart. Eventually reaching for the keystone position of best nip in the apex of the primary arc(#1663) as these forces are traced thru his lessons to these same points that the maths show....


Certainly an eye opener example to show, TY!
Click to expand...

I ran your post through Google Translator and a puff of smoke came off my motherboard.

Love ya man!
 
Sorry bro, as you know been staring down this deep wormhole a few decades with you and , try different words to same premise as always and all ways of what i think i see: the power of knots is in the arcs.
>>but then also there undoing as we see here in the fail of Cow and but then radial in end gave the catch of HH(Half Hitch)?
.
The whole secret to Hitches and Bends to me is the linear/focused force input by SPart(Standing Part) converted to radial conversion inside knot, to then leverage control . The real such controls are all thru these radial arcs.
DIRECTION is for the radial input rope to grab the neutral load.
Torque of load spin INPUT INSTEAD here worked it more the other way around of radial dispersed force funneled from wider arc dispersion into linear focused against SPart and/or BE(Bitter End) as my view of act_1 Cow Fail.
The load played the rope's own very powerful game backward against the rope of radial force in opposite direction for opposite win. Load as the primary function before rope in chain of events, that rope just responds to, and load force has advanced seating in chain of events as primary and then from a higher leveraged/greater arc input radius of load arm spin than the rope arc radius on load. So knot picked open radially by strategy that usually locks down radially; load moved first against rope radially and flipped the game board around/reversed polarity for reversed effect of load working radial against rope, instead of rope working radial against load; or perhaps just to larger extent.
Also, just that load can move so radially, even if in more of a tightening direction;
>>there is this concept of having to had break the static friction to do so
>>that the nip etc. controls depend on besides the tension
.
So in act_1 Cow Fail: radial control run backwards for opposite reaction of unlock, rather than lock.
Even in binding a bundle, a load shift is a re-calc/game changer of what is and could be.
.
But in act_2 HH save radially force wise the perseverance of just following the plan paid off as a 2nd catch(and then w/2nd HH too!) even tho not in the way normally expected. BUT a constant lesson is that by giving more ropeParts: can allow Nature to find more ways to maximize on the fly/even unexpectedly, thus minimal builds, not so much. Less ropeParts, fewer ways and means for Nature to connive support on the fly.
.
Act_2 ends w/HH stopper_1 walked around as far as it could into the rising nip pressures around the arc. HH walked/was drawn boldly from minimum radial position of nip next to SPart towards the maximum nip 180 from SPart of 2xTension potential, same point/math as keystone position in bridge arc or 2xPower in pulley position. It got slowed down a bit after the 1xTension nip @90 from SPart as enters 180 arc 'cap', until dragged down wading thru ever increasing nip, and stuck in the mud @ about half way from 90 to 180 positions from SPart.
The fight to walk the Half Hitch was lost, dragged down gradually and buried in mud, still uphill battle; if HH try to move it must fight uphill(forcewise) to more tension nip, not a calling from a relief/downhill urging to try forward at any load unsettling type imagery..
.
The math and geometry seem to always let me read/translate a story, sometimes tooo much!
Cosine and Sine per radial degree from benchmark line is the 'decoder ring', indexed by clock face numbers. Thus direction, VERY important, then the whole volume of force as a focused linear vs dispersed radial, and the direction of that change/funneling (to concentration of linear or dispersed radial)are constant observations.
.
Cosine and Sine usually used as pieces of the whole cosine to this utility, sine to another function/utility. Max use is employing both together as 1 in that same increment; total of all force in rope, like is used in arc frictions. This is a principle of 180 arc as witnessed in bridge arcs as a compression usage, just applied here as a rope not stone and in the tension, not compression direction. The host gives this shape to the rope support, just like a cement, plastic , steel etc. form is used to impart these qualities to a material of support. Just with rope the form must stay in place during use, to give rope the radial arc form, to then position rope to give arc support.
 
Muggs said:
I have seen a cow hitch with 2 half hitches actively rolling out (coming undone) when being pulled perpendicular... it's fine for side to side, or up and down, but I don't like it for a straight pull... as far as the endline clove hitch, don't get me started, it's the worst of the lot... I use the Daisy Chain hitch for everything, most people use a running bow, to each his own... with a half hitch keeper when necessary... that's what I love about tree work, there's a hundred ways to get a job done...

What really stood out about this post for me is: you guys have 2 GRCS's ??? Damn...... (y):cool:

Patrick
Click to expand...
Three GRCS's actually and the first has serial number 4 on it:) Early adopter:)
 
TheTreeSpyder said:
Sorry bro, as you know been staring down this deep wormhole a few decades with you and , try different words to same premise as always and all ways of what i think i see: the power of knots is in the arcs.
>>but then also there undoing as we see here in the fail of Cow and but then radial in end gave the catch of HH(Half Hitch)?
.
The whole secret to Hitches and Bends to me is the linear/focused force input by SPart(Standing Part) converted to radial conversion inside knot, to then leverage control . The real such controls are all thru these radial arcs.
DIRECTION is for the radial input rope to grab the neutral load.
Torque of load spin INPUT INSTEAD here worked it more the other way around of radial dispersed force funneled from wider arc dispersion into linear focused against SPart and/or BE(Bitter End) as my view of act_1 Cow Fail.
The load played the rope's own very powerful game backward against the rope of radial force in opposite direction for opposite win. Load as the primary function before rope in chain of events, that rope just responds to, and load force has advanced seating in chain of events as primary and then from a higher leveraged/greater arc input radius of load arm spin than the rope arc radius on load. So knot picked open radially by strategy that usually locks down radially; load moved first against rope radially and flipped the game board around/reversed polarity for reversed effect of load working radial against rope, instead of rope working radial against load; or perhaps just to larger extent.
Also, just that load can move so radially, even if in more of a tightening direction;
>>there is this concept of having to had break the static friction to do so
>>that the nip etc. controls depend on besides the tension
.
So in act_1 Cow Fail: radial control run backwards for opposite reaction of unlock, rather than lock.
Even in binding a bundle, a load shift is a re-calc/game changer of what is and could be.
.
But in act_2 HH save radially force wise the perseverance of just following the plan paid off as a 2nd catch(and then w/2nd HH too!) even tho not in the way normally expected. BUT a constant lesson is that by giving more ropeParts: can allow Nature to find more ways to maximize on the fly/even unexpectedly, thus minimal builds, not so much. Less ropeParts, fewer ways and means for Nature to connive support on the fly.
.
Act_2 ends w/HH stopper_1 walked around as far as it could into the rising nip pressures around the arc. HH walked/was drawn boldly from minimum radial position of nip next to SPart towards the maximum nip 180 from SPart of 2xTension potential, same point/math as keystone position in bridge arc or 2xPower in pulley position. It got slowed down a bit after the 1xTension nip @90 from SPart as enters 180 arc 'cap', until dragged down wading thru ever increasing nip, and stuck in the mud @ about half way from 90 to 180 positions from SPart.
The fight to walk the Half Hitch was lost, dragged down gradually and buried in mud, still uphill battle; if HH try to move it must fight uphill(forcewise) to more tension nip, not a calling from a relief/downhill urging to try forward at any load unsettling type imagery..
.
The math and geometry seem to always let me read/translate a story, sometimes tooo much!
Cosine and Sine per radial degree from benchmark line is the 'decoder ring', indexed by clock face numbers. Thus direction, VERY important, then the whole volume of force as a focused linear vs dispersed radial, and the direction of that change/funneling (to concentration of linear or dispersed radial)are constant observations.
.
Cosine and Sine usually used as pieces of the whole cosine to this utility, sine to another function/utility. Max use is employing both together as 1 in that same increment; total of all force in rope, like is used in arc frictions. This is a principle of 180 arc as witnessed in bridge arcs as a compression usage, just applied here as a rope not stone and in the tension, not compression direction. The host gives this shape to the rope support, just like a cement, plastic , steel etc. form is used to impart these qualities to a material of support. Just with rope the form must stay in place during use, to give rope the radial arc form, to then position rope to give arc support.
Click to expand...
your intellect is truly dizzying:) , but well said and I did follow and that is exactly what happened. The double half hitches held on. The horizontal load with movement has potential for the unexpected.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

New threads New posts

Kask Stihl NORTHEASTERN Arborists Wesspur TreeStuff.com Teufelberger Westminster X-Rigging Teufelberger
Back
Top Bottom