Climber falls onto fence using doubled rope ascent

[banjo]

Re: Climber falls onto fence using doubled rope as

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I use the Kongs almost daily. I like to back them up by fixing 2 rope. Very fast and easy and all you need is one caribiner.

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I really like the idea. Can you explain how you set it up. I looked at the links that were posted in this thread but still dont get it.

 

[tod_k]

Re: Climber falls onto fence using doubled rope as

Install an ascess line SRT. Tie an alpine butterfly, clip a caribiner to it, install climbing line to caribiner. Pull up ascess line (you will be pulling up 2 ropes). Once the alpine gets to the anchor point use a ground belay. Now both rope are fixed and can not move.

 

[banjo]

Re: Climber falls onto fence using doubled rope as

Got it. Thanks

 

[DSMc]

Re: Climber falls onto fence using doubled rope as

Banjo, here is another alternative. Start by setting a single access line. To one end of that line attach a properly, rated pulley. Take your climbing line, tie an alpine butterfly in the middle, attach that to the sheave of the pulley.

Pull it, via the access line, up to your selected crotch. Now you will have two parallel, independent lines available for the ascent greatly reducing the risk of failure.

Then, once you have reached your tie in point, lanyard in, retie your climbing line to your preferred configuration then reattach it to the pulley.

You will then have a system that produces almost no wear on your climbing rope and will allow for a ground-based rescue.

Dave

 

[KentuckySawyer]

Re: Climber falls onto fence using doubled rope as

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Another near miss from using doubled rope ascent. In the article there are recommendations for 'backing up' doubled ascenders. When will it be accepted that using SRT is 'better'?

This climber would likely have been uninjured if they had used SRT even without a 'backup'.

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I don't see the link you're drawing between DdRT and this climber falling. Sounds like he fell because he wasn't using an appropriate system. If he had backed up the Kongs or just used a prussic nothing would have gone wrong. How is this indiscretion the fault of DdRT?

If you're climbing SRT with no backup, and your rope comes out of the ascender, what happens? Gravity happens and you're headed earthward.

DdRT allows for higher TIP, which allows for better mobility through the tree. This translates to more climber comfort when making cuts, etc which I would argue means safer cuts with less fatigue on the climber.

SRT might be better for some things, but I doubt its better across the board. DdRT is surely better for many applications as well.

Don't let doqma get it the way of Appropriate Technology.

 

[Gerald_Beranek]

Re: Climber falls onto fence using doubled rope as

Once a little stick became stuck in the cam of a PMI shelled type ascender. Which made it fail to lock on the rope. I wont forget it. I was standing on the foot grab, pantine, running the PMI up and down on the line trying to get it to grab, but it wouldn't. I had another as a backup and rested back on it to break the other down, examine it, and reset it.

Just a little stick. That's all it took.

I've had friction hitches fail to grab numerous times during my career too.

I don't believe there's anything we use that is totally foolproof. It's Murphy's law. "If it can happen"

 

[Lazarus2]

Re: Climber falls onto fence using doubled rope as

Thats a good point Jerry.

I've had that happen with toothed cams and leaves, but the teeth soon cut through. What I like about a Croll and Ascension in line, is I can sit back on the Croll or ascension, tie an alpine butterlfy, and clip it with the spare leg of the spelegyca. Simple case then to flick off a cam and clean it without worrying about dropping anything important (like can happen with a shelled cam). I see some rely on just one shelled ascender because they think its fool proof. Your example also shows that, even though not a rated item of PPE, the Pantin can still be a good aid to safety! I also know proficient cavers use it as an emergency ascender if one gets trashed on route - by clipping the hole under the cam with krab and lanyard (then employed as a hand ascender, not foot : )

Also, in the Frog, its the ascension that pushes through the twigs, clearing a way for the Croll. By holding the handle with one hand and gripping the top of the device with the other, the rope passes through my hand, so I can keep out any twigs. Then there is the krab through the top holes doing the same job, but that doesn't have feeling wired to my brain : )

If the top ascender malfunctions, the Croll is there managing any slack on a millimeter scale, so I won't get that awful 'momentary falling' feeling before a redundancy item takes over.

Planning safe, efficient ascent systems requires a systems approach to safety, and understanding the limitations of equipment in that system. All my systems demos are now limitation based and presented. This builds awarenes and avoidance of risks as a primary mindset for those new to the system, when only observing through a short period of time. Especially those likely to adopt what they've seen, without more in depth training.

 

[KentuckySawyer]

Re: Climber falls onto fence using doubled rope as

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This climber would likely have been uninjured if they had used SRT even without a 'backup'.

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I'm still very curious about this assertion. How is it that the climber wouldn't have been injured if he/she had been ascending SRT with no backup?

 

[Jamin_Mayer]

Re: Climber falls onto fence using doubled rope as

Good point.

 

[Lazarus2]

Re: Climber falls onto fence using doubled rope as

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This climber would likely have been uninjured if they had used SRT even without a 'backup'.

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I'm still very curious about this assertion. How is it that the climber wouldn't have been injured if he/she had been ascending SRT with no backup?

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Keep thinking, it'll come to you!

 

[KentuckySawyer]

Re: Climber falls onto fence using doubled rope as

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This climber would likely have been uninjured if they had used SRT even without a 'backup'.

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I'm still very curious about this assertion. How is it that the climber wouldn't have been injured if he/she had been ascending SRT with no backup?

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Keep thinking, it'll come to you!

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Probably not. I've never climbed SRT (except DdRT off a floating pulley). Seems that if you're climbing off a single line with a single ascender, and that single cam opens up, you're headed to the ground.

 

[Lazarus2]

Re: Climber falls onto fence using doubled rope as

1. You should never climb on a single line with only a single ascender. The device that failed had two cams - if they were used in line on a single rope, the fall wouldn't have happened (most likely).


2. The reason the twin ascender came off is because the rope twisted out of the cam (because it wasn't secured through the top holes) from the side pull. The top holes are easy to clip on a single ascender, preventing the rope twisting out of the cam.

 

[KentuckySawyer]

Re: Climber falls onto fence using doubled rope as

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1. You should never climb on a single line with only a single ascender. The device that failed had two cams - if they were used in line on a single rope, the fall wouldn't have happened (most likely).

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But Tom said the climber wouldn't have fallen if climbing SRT even WITHOUT a backup. How is this so?

 

[Jman]

Re: Climber falls onto fence using doubled rope as

I'm thinking Tom was referring to the redundancy within the SRT system. Two Independent cams, so if one fails there is another to back it up.

With he Kong if one fails the entire system goes along with it. But that’s just what I got from it.

 

[Lazarus2]

Re: Climber falls onto fence using doubled rope as

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1. You should never climb on a single line with only a single ascender. The device that failed had two cams - if they were used in line on a single rope, the fall wouldn't have happened (most likely).

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But Tom said the climber wouldn't have fallen if climbing SRT even WITHOUT a backup. How is this so?

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My Point number 2.

 

[Crazy_Jimmy]

Re: Climber falls onto fence using doubled rope as

Hum so the real point should be not to ascend with ascenders without a backup,regardless of the particular rope access method.I ve seen 2 climbers tips brake using srt and both where only shaken up-but could of been alot worse.Because of this I dont automatically come to the conclusion that one should not srt.Just choose larger tips.Sometimes bias and personal preference get in the way of sound judgement.I ascend both ways and always use a backup- the tree is the deciding factor not a ascending method i prefer.I still do production alot so with me personally going fast is as important as being safe.I wish more climbers would be more open to multiple means of ascent.You cannot force one particular ascending method on every tree thats ignorant to the modern advancements in the industry.I may add its funny to watch when someone does it and not very efficient.

 

[Lazarus2]

Re: Climber falls onto fence using doubled rope as

Jimmy

There are many issues regarding the technique that led to the fall.

Not all are to do with keeping the climber on the rope.

As for snapping out anchor points with SRT; if climbers are choosing such marginal anchor points for that to happen, its not directly linked to SRT. SRT can be used to advantage to prevent any unecessary loading. Thats just bad choice of anchor point, plain and simple.

I think the problem comes from the term SRT. Footlocking, DdRT and SRT are all SRT (One rope, one anchor point). Its how we fix and attach to the rope that determines anchor forces, leverage forces and fall forces.

If we do our homework and study the specifics of our equipment, its testing and compatibility (risk assessment), we can learn to plan:

1. dependable redundancy (at anchor, belay, connectors and descender),
2. reduce leverage forces,
3. reduce anchor forces,
4. reduce fall forces,
5. reduce fall distance (very important climbing through branches), and
6. quick and simple rescue procedures.

But not by the technique this thread was started about. My Frog system and RAD system can, and it takes no longer to set up than backing up the fall technique in this thread. I'm not insisting everyone should do it my way, but I do want to open a few eyes to the bigger picture of planning a system, to avoid such a horrific fall, but also other risk factors that are rarely considered.

Thats without even going in to ergonomics.

 

[Gerald_Beranek]

Re: Climber falls onto fence using doubled rope as

Quite some years ago I was invited to speak at a conference in Lincoln, Nebraska. Charly Pottorff was with me. It was my first actual public speaking spot. I'm not a good public speaker. But to cut to the chase, the speaker before me was a gal from some workers comp insurance company, and her topic was, "Accidents are preventable."

It was a tough act to follow because my topic was, "All accidents are not preventable." So go figure. Man!!!

Was it fate that it worked out that way? I don't know, but after it was over the response from the audience was much better than I expected, considering what I was already up against.

After the show was over that insurance rep gal complimented me on the examples I used to show that not all accidents are preventable. It was vindication, for a short period. Other insurance reps had there say at the show.

The majority of accidents are preventable, but life is not so predicable as to be able to prevent them all.

For our own sake the best we can do is to look after each other and follow the examples and advise passed on by those who have suffered.

I'll tell you, I am one lucky son of a gun to have escaped injury from most of the near misses in my life. Oh, yeah, a few got me. The good part is I've been able to pass on the examples of those experiences, both good and bad.

So hopefully others will learn. I'm betting on it!

 

[KentuckySawyer]

Re: Climber falls onto fence using doubled rope as

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There are many issues regarding the technique that led to the fall.

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Actually theres only one. He fell because his ascenders weren't backed up.

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As for snapping out anchor points with SRT; if climbers are choosing such marginal anchor points for that to happen, its not directly linked to SRT.

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Much the same way as this climber's fall not being linked to DdRT. He fell because his ascenders weren't backed up.

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SRT can be used to advantage to prevent any unecessary loading.

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DdRT does this too!

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Re: Climber falls onto fence using doubled rope as

"He fell because his ascenders weren't backed up."

And...he didn't have the top holes of the ascenders pinned or clipped...and...he moved off to the side instead of keeping the access line vertical.

All of these issues are much easier to solve using SRT.

One way that I reduce the load on an SRT TIP is to spiral the rope down the tree. The extra friction reduces the load on that leg of the rope. If enough friction can be generated very close to the TIP any increased loading from an SRT ascent can be greatly reduced...almost eliminated.